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Offline Rushy

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Russia's lost a huge amount of territory in the North.  Even now they're losing more territory on that front.

No, they haven't and no, they're not. Stop making things up.

The only front Russia is making progress is around Bakmut.  Slowly.  Very slowly.

The ISW, where you got your map from, has stated that Russia's army is in danger of collapse multiple times.

Absolutely none of what you just said is true, amazing. Care to try again?

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Offline J-Man

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I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.

I've been saying Russia is gonna go to war with Ukraine since earlier this year because I have been reading posts somewhere.
I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT DID.

dude or dudess, Ukraine Nazi's have been bombing Russians in Ukraine since 2014. It had to happen and Putin is NOT leaving with his peace keepers till the place is a wasteland and he is the influential power broker. NATO is done causing strife or we will end up in ww111
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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But Tom... what would Russia spend the money on?  Lets say they have unlimited money.  Or slave labor.  Whatever.  They can spend any amount of money.  Where would they shop?  The weapons Ukraine is getting is more advanced that most of what Russia has thrown into the war, which means Russia hasn't kept up, militarily.  (Your note about the spending is probably why)  As such, they can't buy what they need nor make it.  They've been cut off from most of the world and the arms markets.  MAYBE they can buy from China but China seems like they want to remain mostly neutral-Russia.  Helping them a bit and being friendly, but not jumping into the war with them.

Also: While china is an economic powerhouse, not sure Brazil is anywhere there.

Also also:
China is condemning the actions likely because they know it'll make Russia happy AND not matter.
This is a similar thing Politicians in the US do.  When a bill that they, personally, approve of but their voters hate it, they will vote against it if its almost certain to win.
Its easy to condemn anything, so long as it won't happen.

The situation is that China is buying from Russia, not the other way around:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/infographic-which-countries-buy-the-most-russian-weapons

"Russia is the world’s second-largest arms exporter: India buys one-quarter of those weapons followed by China, Algeria, Egypt and Vietnam."

Russia doesn't really need anyone to sell them weapons. They have the plans to make decently performing tanks and planes and rifles and whatever they need. There are plenty of Russian and international companies willing to take Russian money and build those tanks and planes. In a major war Russia can also just tell its companies to convert their factories and make equipment for them, for which they will pay for.

China's role is to primarily to sell Russia electronic components and raw materials for its weapons:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-firms-are-selling-russia-goods-its-military-needs-to-keep-fighting-in-ukraine-11657877403

"BEIJING—Chinese exports to Russia of microchips and other electronic components and raw materials, some with military applications, have increased since Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, complicating efforts by the U.S. and Western allies to isolate the country’s economy and cripple its military."

If you compare the size of Russia's defense industry to the US it might seem that Russia's defense industry is still rather small, despite being the second-largest arms exporter, but this is mainly because it is direct USD to USD comparison and does not account for the fact that $100 USD is worth a lot more in Russia than in the US. The US is also encumbered in that it has to maintain hundreds of US Military bases around the world, and provide foreign protection to its allies, whereas Russia is not as encumbered. Almost universally, such graphs and comparisons do not account for this inequality and attempt to show the US as the biggest and best in terms of USD spent.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 09:25:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline crutonius

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Russia's lost a huge amount of territory in the North.  Even now they're losing more territory on that front.

No, they haven't and no, they're not. Stop making things up.

The only front Russia is making progress is around Bakmut.  Slowly.  Very slowly.

The ISW, where you got your map from, has stated that Russia's army is in danger of collapse multiple times.

Absolutely none of what you just said is true, amazing. Care to try again?

I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

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Offline Rushy

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I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Yes, we do seem to live in different realities, which is odd, considering we're using the same source. The source I'm reading and looking at so far says nothing you have claimed. Are you sure you know how to read? Is the map confusing to you somehow?

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Offline crutonius

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And if this comes down to resources then Russia loses.

Debatable. Countries can take on debt, if need be, to fight wars. The more debt you take on the more interest you have to pay on that debt. Countries fail when they can't pay the interest on their debt. It is known that the US and various Western European countries are already living near their limits.

Here are some quotes:

Russia: "In 2021, the national debt of Russia amounted to about 17.02 percent of gross domestic product."

US: "US Government debt accounted for 126.7 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Jun 2022,"

UK: "Now Britain is in the 100% debt-to-GDP club, what’s the spending plan?"

Italy: "Italy Government debt accounted for 152.6 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Mar 2022,"

All biggest Western Countries and allies: "Developed countries in the 100% club are a motley lot: Cyprus, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy, plus Canada, Japan and the US."

So Russia might have a larger relative credit card to rack up debt on. The US and the biggest NATO countries are known to be spend-a-holics who are living at the limit, largely due to massive welfare and socialist programs enacted by liberals who do not care about fiscal responsibility. It is quite possible that fiscally conservative Russia can start spending on their credit and outspend them all. Also, $100 USD goes a lot further in Russia than in the US and UK. It's more like $500 based on what you can buy with it.

At this moment it's primarily about 6 almost insolvent countries vs. 1 (Russia).

If China and Brazil team up with Russia, as they have been suggesting recently based on UN votes on Russia condemnation and sanction, it may spell significant trouble for NATO. Those countries are fiscally conservative, do not overspend on welfare programs, and have much lower gdp to debt ratios than the US or Western European nations (~50% debt to gdp).

I think it might paint a clearer picture to consider absolute gdp instead of percentage of debt.  Our media sort of paints a picture of the West being a lot more helpful to Ukraine than we actually are.

Let me throw out a few things to put things in perspective:

The US has committed around 60 billion to Ukraine.  I think we've actually delivered about 14 billion.  This number is deceptive though.  Quite a bit of this was equipment that was obsolete and costing us money to maintain.  Most of it was a sunk cost.  It's hardware that we've already built to fight a country like Russia.  There really isn't a reason to replace it.

We suffer about 150 billion a year in hurricane damage.  So hurricanes are a bigger drain on us than Ukraine is by somewhere between 3 and 10 times.

The UK is in a bit of trouble but that's mostly from stabbing itself in the face with Brexit and massive tax cuts for the rich.

Russia and China are not friends or even allies.  China stands more to lose by severing ties with us than they do by helping Russia.  I don't know much about the geopolitics of Brazil.

There's a cost to this whole to the whole world regarding various supply chain disruptions but that's here to stay.  Even if the war were ending tomorrow a lot of countries would still refuse to trade with Russian since the mask is off now.  They're an unreliable and hostile trading partner.

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Offline Lord Dave

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But Tom... what would Russia spend the money on?  Lets say they have unlimited money.  Or slave labor.  Whatever.  They can spend any amount of money.  Where would they shop?  The weapons Ukraine is getting is more advanced that most of what Russia has thrown into the war, which means Russia hasn't kept up, militarily.  (Your note about the spending is probably why)  As such, they can't buy what they need nor make it.  They've been cut off from most of the world and the arms markets.  MAYBE they can buy from China but China seems like they want to remain mostly neutral-Russia.  Helping them a bit and being friendly, but not jumping into the war with them.

Also: While china is an economic powerhouse, not sure Brazil is anywhere there.

Also also:
China is condemning the actions likely because they know it'll make Russia happy AND not matter.
This is a similar thing Politicians in the US do.  When a bill that they, personally, approve of but their voters hate it, they will vote against it if its almost certain to win.
Its easy to condemn anything, so long as it won't happen.

The situation is that China is buying from Russia, not the other way around:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/infographic-which-countries-buy-the-most-russian-weapons

"Russia is the world’s second-largest arms exporter: India buys one-quarter of those weapons followed by China, Algeria, Egypt and Vietnam."

Russia doesn't really need anyone to sell them weapons. They have the plans to make decently performing tanks and planes and rifles and whatever they need. There are plenty of Russian and international companies willing to take Russian money and build those tanks and planes. In a major war Russia can also just tell its companies to convert their factories and make equipment for them, for which they will pay for.

China's role is to primarily to sell Russia electronic components and raw materials for its weapons:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-firms-are-selling-russia-goods-its-military-needs-to-keep-fighting-in-ukraine-11657877403

"BEIJING—Chinese exports to Russia of microchips and other electronic components and raw materials, some with military applications, have increased since Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, complicating efforts by the U.S. and Western allies to isolate the country’s economy and cripple its military."

If you compare the size of Russia's defense industry to the US it might seem that Russia's defense industry is still rather small, despite being the second-largest arms exporter, but this is mainly because it is direct USD to USD comparison and does not account for the fact that $100 USD is worth a lot more in Russia than in the US. The US is also encumbered in that it has to maintain hundreds of US Military bases around the world, and provide foreign protection to its allies, whereas Russia is not as encumbered. Almost universally, such graphs and comparisons do not account for this inequality and attempt to show the US as the biggest and best in terms of USD spent.
I'm more comparring military might against Ukraine.
Based on reports, their soldiers have few supplies, vehicles are old and not suited to the terrain, their warheads are running low, communications aren't even encrypted, etc...

If Russia sells weapons to China, China's army isn't gonna be very advanced.

The fact that Russia hasn't taken Kyiv tells me that they haven't the military power or supplies to do so.  And even if they can build what they need, they haven't yet.  And by the time they have enough of a supply to wage a war, it would be too late.

They expected this to be over in weeks.  They didn't build up their supplies.  Didn't build new, advanced tanks and planes.  They didn't give high training to the soliders. In the end, they prepared for a surrender and got a war they haven't been able to win.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline crutonius

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I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Yes, we do seem to live in different realities, which is odd, considering we're using the same source. The source I'm reading and looking at so far says nothing you have claimed. Are you sure you know how to read? Is the map confusing to you somehow?

I apologize for the insultingly basic suggestion.  I realize that as a professional with technology that I may suggest things that aren't necessary possible for those of us who aren't that computer literate.  I'm going to try for some basic instructions as to how to ease this website.  By all means let me know if you maybe are confused about some of the controls.  No shame.  Happens to us all.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Close to the bottom right there's a clock icon.

click on it and set the date to the first of September.

Then Click the right every to advance one day and the advantages associated with it.

You see that that as you click the right arrow, which represents time going forward, that the Ukrainians are taking more and more territory.  And for the last month that shows increasing gains on behalf of the Ukrainians. 

I'm also going to track down a gif that should be things even simpler to understand.

Try that.  See if you still disagree with me.

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Offline Rushy

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I apologize for the insultingly basic suggestion.  I realize that as a professional with technology that I may suggest things that aren't necessary possible for those of us who aren't that computer literate.  I'm going to try for some basic instructions as to how to ease this website.  By all means let me know if you maybe are confused about some of the controls.  No shame.  Happens to us all.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Close to the bottom right there's a clock icon.

click on it and set the date to the first of September.

Then Click the right every to advance one day and the advantages associated with it.

You see that that as you click the right arrow, which represents time going forward, that the Ukrainians are taking more and more territory.  And for the last month that shows increasing gains on behalf of the Ukrainians. 

I'm also going to track down a gif that should be things even simpler to understand.

Try that.  See if you still disagree with me.

Ah, I see you've suddenly decided to use an entirely different website called, hilariously, "deepstatemap". Care to explain why? Going to start telling me about how the deepstate is keeping your president out of office or something?

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Offline J-Man

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Russia smiles as OPEC cuts production by 2mbd. Were going over $100 a barrel again boys and girls. Tighten those belts. Putin is winning?
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?


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Offline Tumeni

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Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?

Yes.

Innocents lost their lives. How does carpet-bombing residential areas deal with corruption? 
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?



Poroshenko was the president of Ukraine in 2015. He was a supporter of the Soviet Union just like you. Yes, he was very corrupt.

We all understand that for the Republicans and Putin, the invasion of Ukraine is just part of the plan to rebuild the Soviet union. It had nothing to do with the corruption of the government or the Nazis. Just like Crimea, it was another step in the path to dominate Europe. Putin's supporters know this and want it to happen.
Moldova would be next except for the spectacular failure of the Russian military. I thought Putin would sweep through Ukraine, seize that country and crush it into utter submission.
Also, Putin was counting on support from people like Trump, Mike Lidell, Steven Seagal, Tom and J Man. Turns out that none of those people are very helpful with anything.
Now, Putin has his testicles hung on a barbed wire fence and can't get himself loose.
The Lungmen were here...


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Offline Lord Dave

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Russia smiles as OPEC cuts production by 2mbd. Were going over $100 a barrel again boys and girls. Tighten those belts. Putin is winning?
He IS.
Best go and buy those Electric Cars.  Soon they'll be the cheapest alternative.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline markjo

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Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?
Sounds like Putin should have invaded in 2015 when he could have won with a lot less effort.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?
Yes. After all, it stopped being the most corrupt nation after 2015, and Putin is trying to bring that back. You should be sad, because you accurately identified that things were bad, and the guy you're desperately trying to support (wow! so edgy and rebellious) is trying to bring that badness back.

Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 10:36:00 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

P.S.  All of us illiterate folks understood this the first time.

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Offline stack

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Here's where I'm confused. Why does it appear that the far-right in the West seem (emphasis on 'seem') to be pro-Putin? I don't get it. Is it NATO expansion, $/Aid, Nazis, Zelenskyy, the impeachment thing, Tucker Carlson? Anyone have a few sentence 'splainer on this? Scouring the media doesn't really reveal much in the way of logic.

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Offline Tron

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Stack - I can't speak for another group, but in my point of view Gorbatrev was a popular person among american business professionals and seen as a friend.  During the Bush era, Putin seemed to support America in whatever it is we thought was necessary.

Over the past 10 years it seems like nobody domestically or overseas, friend or foe, was reporting good news on TV..

I personally don't understand why Putin took Crimea.  It was offensive.  But so was the Maiden revolution in Ukraine, and the supposed strong arming of Russia to pressure Ukraine out of an importnat EU Trade deal.

It just doesn't end...
 

From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Here's where I'm confused. Why does it appear that the far-right in the West seem (emphasis on 'seem') to be pro-Putin? I don't get it. Is it NATO expansion, $/Aid, Nazis, Zelenskyy, the impeachment thing, Tucker Carlson? Anyone have a few sentence 'splainer on this? Scouring the media doesn't really reveal much in the way of logic.
Because Biden doesn't.

The far-right is literally "I'm against whatever he is for."
So if Biden is for helping Ukraine, The far right is against it and for Putin.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Because Biden doesn't.

The far-right is literally "I'm against whatever he is for."
So if Biden is for helping Ukraine, The far right is against it and for Putin.

That is part of it. Like the Republican anti-vax movement, a lot of Republicans knew it was bullshit but saw they could radicalize the ignorant rednecks by wailing about vaccines. They could stand at the podium slamming their machete down, yelling about the left taking their freedom and mindless zombie crowds would cheer.

But the main reason the Republicans are betraying their country to support Russian expansion is that they know Russia will support them in the next election. Facebook has already removed thousands of fake accounts originating in Russia promoting Russia propaganda. Putin will bring resources to the right wing just like the pharmaceutical or the petroleum industry. Handing over Crimea was part of Trump's agreement with Putin. If he had been reelected, he would have given them Ukraine and Moldova.

Republicans fall into two categories. There are those who recognize and understand Putin's agenda and propaganda but will benefit from it. Then there are those idiots who actually believe the propaganda. It is a confluence of the evil and the stupid.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 12:14:56 PM by Dr Van Nostrand »
The Lungmen were here...


Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...