Offline msd

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An idea for experiment
« on: August 30, 2021, 03:50:10 PM »
hello everyone
i have a simple idea for an experiment
is there a way to build straight line ? i believe there is. if so
why not just build a straight line over the water like in river or lake

i say water because it always has the perfect surface for such experiment whether its curved or flat water
then we can measure the distance between the surface of water and the line
its so simple and the result cant be denied

Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 08:31:38 PM »
i have a simple idea for an experiment

Please do not let this discourage you, but you have a simple idea for an observation/measurement (NOT in any way an experiment - the colloquial definition of that word that we commonly use is incorrect)

Quote
is there a way to build straight line ? i believe there is. if so
why not just build a straight line over the water like in river or lake

I agree.  The history tells us this was done once in the past, though I don't think it was done over water.  It was named the rectilineator and supposedly measured the world to be concave.

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its so simple and the result cant be denied

I agree that it is (reasonably) simple, and the results somewhat unequivocal - however it is shamefully easy for any result to be arbitrarily denied - including this one :(
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 08:43:15 PM by jack44556677 »

Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 08:44:55 PM »
Experiments have been done like this with a laser over water. Unsurprisingly, it failed to definitively resolve anything.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2021, 09:23:10 PM »
Experiments have been done like this with a laser over water.

The LIGO does it with a laser over land accounting for the earth's curvature in a controlled environment eliminating the possibility of refraction.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2021, 01:22:45 AM »
LIGO has been previously discussed - https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2021, 02:21:32 AM »
LIGO has been previously discussed - https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

Yeah.  A precision device designed to measure distances smaller than a proton was just adjusted because the ends were off by over 49 inches.  You go with that and try to maintain any credibility.  And while your at it you can contemplate how a beam splitter was adjusted for two beams, 90 degrees apart, to account for over 49" of error when the center house was built with multiple mirrors expecting the beams to be level.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2021, 03:05:49 AM »
LIGO has been previously discussed - https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

Yeah.  A precision device designed to measure distances smaller than a proton was just adjusted because the ends were off by over 49 inches.  You go with that and try to maintain any credibility.  And while your at it you can contemplate how a beam splitter was adjusted for two beams, 90 degrees apart, to account for over 49" of error when the center house was built with multiple mirrors expecting the beams to be level.

I just see a series of unsourced assumptions. The purpose of the machine is not to detect the curvature of the earth.

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2021, 03:46:06 AM »
LIGO has been previously discussed - https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

Yeah.  A precision device designed to measure distances smaller than a proton was just adjusted because the ends were off by over 49 inches.  You go with that and try to maintain any credibility.  And while your at it you can contemplate how a beam splitter was adjusted for two beams, 90 degrees apart, to account for over 49" of error when the center house was built with multiple mirrors expecting the beams to be level.

I just see a series of unsourced assumptions. The purpose of the machine is not to detect the curvature of the earth.


No assumptions, just facts.

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/ligos-ifo

If you'd care to look into the project you'd find the center house is quite complex.  What I see is a man grasping to try to validate his opinion in the face of a tightly controlled, extremely precise scientific piece of equipment which completely destroys his view.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline stack

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2021, 04:24:54 AM »
Just some more info on the beam alignment efforts of LIGO...

Precision alignment of the LIGO 4 km arms using dual-frequency differential GPS

The alignment of the Laser Interferomter Gravitational-wave Observatory (LIGO) using the Global Positioning System (GPS) is described...The subject of this article is the alignment of the 16 km of beam tubes using dual-frequency differential GPS. A maximum deviation from straightness in inertial space of 5 mm rms and an orthogonality between arm pairs of better than 5 microradians is reported.

LIGO, however, posed several unique challenges. The beam tubes needed to be aligned along the propagation direction of light in vacuum and not along the direction perpendicular to local gravity on the surface of the Earth11. The curvature of the Earth will cause the Earth's surface to deviate from the straight line propagated by light in vacuum by 1.25 meters over a 4 km path if the line starts out level with the surface.
https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0072/P000006/000/P000006-A.pdf

Based upon the success of LIGO, some learned folks at MIT and elsewhere are proposing a 10x arm (40km)...

Gravitational wave detector with cosmological reach

Due to the curvature of the Earth, for multikilometer arm cavities the local vertical direction is not quite perpendicular to the optical axis, and this introduces a small but unavoidable coupling between vertical motion of the test mass and the gravitational wave output of the detector, approximately sin ðLarm=2R⊕Þ (0.003 for a 40 km arm).

Finding a suitable site for a 40 km long interferometer is challenging...Both sites are slight bowls, partly compensating for the Earth’s curvature and therefore reducing the amount of earth moving needed.

Furthermore, the investment in a new 40 km facility provides the opportunity to integrate more advanced technologies in the future—limited only by fundamentals like the speed of light and the curvature of the Earth.

https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/96663/PhysRevD.91.082001.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2021, 07:49:36 AM »
LIGO has been previously discussed - https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation
Right. So you have the people who built Ligo saying the curve of the earth means that, because they drilled the tunnel level, one end is closer to the ground than the other.
You're saying that instead of that (top diagram), they could actually have accidentally drilled it at an angle (bottom diagram):



That's what you're going with? And you're claiming other people are making unsourced assumptions?!
You know that when the Channel Tunnel was built they tunnelled from both ends and met in the middle - when they met the tunnels were off by just over 14 inches.
And your claim is that over a significantly smaller span they'd have tried to make a level tunnel but were accidentally off by 42 inches? Do they not have spirit levels and other technologies to make sure things are level?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: An idea for experiment
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2021, 08:03:55 AM »
That article clearly needs expanding. It's missing the most obvious conclusion of previous discussions. In a FE scenario, a device of this level of precision would have to account for EA; or, in other words, the apparent curvature of the Earth.

As we established in previous discussions, this adjustment was performed predominantly through electromagnetic means. There's no big mystery here.

That said, this thread is not about LIGO, and we do not need a duplicate thread on it. Already, stack is wasting our time by repeating explanations we've already gone through. If you want to continue that discussion, just revive the old thread.
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