[Rushy]

For a few years now President Obama, as his campaign promised repeatedly, has downsized the military. Now, I can't be mad about this because he said he was going to do this and then did it. That's not a terribly big surprise. However, you get to wondering where those jobs go, and for me it was pretty obvious, I saw a lot of the jobs replaced by contractors.

In the government world there are two types of civilian employees. The GS series employees are considered federal employees. They work for the government. In addition to this you have contractors, who are employed at your job location but do not work for the government, but instead work for a defense company. These defense companies have been sucking up all the jobs that the military once held and taking more money to do it. Companies such as General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, DynCorp, and Raytheon have all nearly quadrupled in size and value. Their stock prices are through the roof as all that once federal military money is now theirs.

Contractors now make up the majority of more than a few military installations. Essentially meaning, these facilities are now being maintained by people who aren't federal employees, but rather employees of private firms. Private firms which are under considerable pressure to make as much money as humanly possible. This also, leads into the title point. That you can now, essentially, invest directly into the military. For example the F35 isn't flown by contractors, but it is built and maintained by them... and still owned by Lockheed Martin. Lockheed Martin doesn't sell them directly to the government, the government pays for the right to use it (as do all other foreign nations who pay for it). That means if you want to invest in the F35, go ahead and invest in Lockheed Martin. Its the same thing.

tl;dr President Obama is a master troll.

[Tom Bishop]

NASA is run almost entirely by contractors. The only people who work for NASA are security and managers who are three levels up.

[juner]

This is a great post. I actually worked for a software company that was on the same campus as General Dynamics, and it was incredible, spared no expense.

A friend of mine did sysadmin work overseas for a contractor and made 3 times as much as a similar job pays over here. Yes, some was hazard pay, but ignoring that it was still nearly double what could be made in this market. These contractors have access to deep pockets.

[Lord Dave]

This is my biggest problem with government "downsizing".  Hell, this is my biggest problem with pretty much every fucking industry.  They say "Why go through the hassle of hiring our own doctors when we can just contract from Fucking Texas!".  Or really, anywhere.

I think sub-contracting should be illegal if the sub-contractor is going to do a job your company is expected to do.
Example: A hospital should not sub-contract their fucking ER doctors.
A construction company should not sub-contract their god damn carpenters.
And the military should not sub-contract soldiers.

It's really all just a way to saying "Nope, not my employee so I'm not liable if they fuck up."

[Rama Set]

On the subject of retarded government fiscal policy:

After a lone gunman stormed the parliament buildings there was concern that the ceremonial soldiers on parliament hill would become terrorist targets. The solution was to post extra police guards around these soldiers. Now these are real soldiers with much more substantial training than police officers, and they are carrying AR-15s, the only thing they are lacking is ammunition. Why in the world they don't just give these soldiers ammunition is totally beyond me.

[Rushy]

I'm just mad I didn't see this coming three years ago when the draw downs began and contractors magically appeared everywhere. I could have made some cash by buying into these defense companies. Oh well.

[Thork]

Instead of having a Federal army, you are getting a private army owned by god knows who. They aren't taking orders from the President. They take orders from their shareholders.

[Rushy]

Instead of having a Federal army, you are getting a private army owned by god knows who. They aren't taking orders from the President. They take orders from their shareholders.

Yes, Thork, thank you for adding to the discussion by summarizing the opening post.

[Vindictus]

Contractors now make up the majority of more than a few military installations. Essentially meaning, these facilities are now being maintained by people who aren't federal employees, but rather employees of private firms. Private firms which are under considerable pressure to make as much money as humanly possible. This also, leads into the title point. That you can now, essentially, invest directly into the military. For example the F35 isn't flown by contractors, but it is built and maintained by them... and still owned by Lockheed Martin. Lockheed Martin doesn't sell them directly to the government, the government pays for the right to use it (as do all other foreign nations who pay for it). That means if you want to invest in the F35, go ahead and invest in Lockheed Martin. Its the same thing.

tl;dr President Obama is a master troll.

Isn't this how every fighter procurement program has ever worked? I'm also skeptical of how you say the operators of the aircraft don't actually own it.

[Rushy]

No, because aircraft prior to the F22 didn't have their design specs retained by the company. Now every newer aircraft that comes out has its design held by the company. For example, military members aren't allowed to perform internal maintenance on the F22 or the F35. Only contractors from Lockheed may open the interior aircraft panels.

[Vindictus]

How is that surprising? We're talking about highly advanced stealth fighters. In any case, I know Australia will be able to work on the F-35 without having to ship anything to the US, on account of LM establishing a heavy maintenance capability here. Japan is also getting the same treatment. I don't know what the Euro purchasers have to do, although I doubt it involves returning the aircraft to the US.

I know for a fact that the RAAF aren't exactly dissimilar in regards to contracting. From memory, they rely strongly on civilian contractors, with only the most important crew members being a part of the RAAF itself. So I doubt this approach is anything new for them.

[Rushy]

How is that surprising? We're talking about highly advanced stealth fighters. In any case, I know Australia will be able to work on the F-35 without having to ship anything to the US, on account of LM establishing a heavy maintenance capability here. Japan is also getting the same treatment. I don't know what the Euro purchasers have to do, although I doubt it involves returning the aircraft to the US.

The military isn't allowed to work on them because the military isn't allowed to retain the design specs. This isn't about the technical qualifications of the maintenance team. The design specs of the aircraft are still the property of Lockheed Martin. Australia won't be able to work on the F35 without retrieving contractors from Lockheed. Every country that uses the F35 will be paying Lockheed long after they "bought" the aircraft because Lockheed still controls the specs, so therefore there will only be one company on the planet that can make parts for it and do the maintenance. It isn't a mystery why some countries are losing interest in buying them.

They won't be shipping the aircraft back to the US, but they will have to rely on the US furnishing all parts and labor for the aircraft. It'll be a shitstorm if any country opens up to see what is inside that aircraft. It is exactly why Israel doesn't want the US tech inside it and instead wants to put their own tech in it. The thought of that alone made Lockheed not want to sell it to them.

I know for a fact that the RAAF aren't exactly dissimilar in regards to contracting. From memory, they rely strongly on civilian contractors, with only the most important crew members being a part of the RAAF itself. So I doubt this approach is anything new for them.

Most of Europe, the US, Canada, and Australia are all heading in that direction.

[Thork]

The F-35 is estimated to cost a trillion dollars! A trillion bloody dollars. In the US, about 150 million people work. That's about $7000 dollars each! Everyone in America who pays tax has spent $7000 as an average on that one stupid aircraft.

An aircraft I might add that is totally useless. It is not even as good as an F16! It has lost combat fights to them and is now deemed so bad, it can't do air to air combat.
http://www.combataircraft.com/en/News/2015/07/02/Controversy-Flares-Over-F-35-Air-Combat-Report/
http://rt.com/usa/pentagon-f35-report-combat-012/

Imagine if you didn't have to buy that aircraft, what you could do with your $7000 back. for that money, the US could fund Obamacare until 2025! you could fund all the schools in America for 17 years on that! Or every one of you could have a holiday of a lifetime.

[Rushy]

The F-35 is estimated to cost a trillion dollars! A trillion bloody dollars. In the US, about 150 million people work. That's about $7000 dollars each! Everyone in America who pays tax has spent $7000 as an average on that one stupid aircraft.

R&D is very expensive, especially for modern electronics.

An aircraft I might add that is totally useless. It is not even as good as an F16! It has lost combat fights to them and is now deemed so bad, it can't do air to air combat.
http://www.combataircraft.com/en/News/2015/07/02/Controversy-Flares-Over-F-35-Air-Combat-Report/
http://rt.com/usa/pentagon-f35-report-combat-012/

It lost to an F16 in a dogfight. In a real world scenario, the F35 would be equipped with amraam missiles and would have destroyed the F16 before entering visual range. Neither the F16 nor its older gen amraam's would be able to spot the F35 in a real world scenario because it is too difficult to identify a F35 on radar.

This isn't WWII and we aren't fighting Hitler. Dogfights aren't even real anymore.

Imagine if you didn't have to buy that aircraft, what you could do with your $7000 back. for that money, the US could fund Obamacare until 2025! you could fund all the schools in America for 17 years on that! Or every one of you could have a holiday of a lifetime.

Yes, the opportunity cost of having the largest and most advanced military on the planet is high. We have more aircraft on a single carrier than most countries have in their entire fleet.

[Thork]

The F35 is a disaster.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f-35-is-a-disaster-2014-7?op=1&IR=T
http://rt.com/usa/air-jsf-f-35-cost-346/
http://www.wired.com/2012/03/f35-budget-disaster/

It is also not the world's most advanced fighter ... the T50 is going to be better ... and has a far smaller unit price (one fifth) so they can build more for less.
http://www.wired.com/2012/11/russia-stealth/

[Vindictus]

The F-35 is estimated to cost a trillion dollars! A trillion bloody dollars. In the US, about 150 million people work. That's about $7000 dollars each! Everyone in America who pays tax has spent $7000 as an average on that one stupid aircraft.

An aircraft I might add that is totally useless. It is not even as good as an F16! It has lost combat fights to them and is now deemed so bad, it can't do air to air combat.
http://www.combataircraft.com/en/News/2015/07/02/Controversy-Flares-Over-F-35-Air-Combat-Report/
http://rt.com/usa/pentagon-f35-report-combat-012/

Imagine if you didn't have to buy that aircraft, what you could do with your $7000 back. for that money, the US could fund Obamacare until 2025! you could fund all the schools in America for 17 years on that! Or every one of you could have a holiday of a lifetime.

Commenting on that recent news event, the F-35 didn't lose to the F-16 in a dogfight, because it wasn't a dogfight. It was a test of the F-35 in ACM, to establish what its current limits are. It was found that the F-35 in question, AF-2 (from memory), was well within its limits and could stand to use some changes in the flight software to allow it to be more maneuverable.

AF-2 also didn't have any of the systems that give it an edge in the merge, such as the EOTS/DAS, HMCS and HOBS missiles, as these weren't what was being tested. As Rushy noted, the F-35 would utterly decimate an F-16 in realistic combat, even if an F-16 somehow got close. It has superior radar, sensors and stealth.

The F35 is a disaster.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f-35-is-a-disaster-2014-7?op=1&IR=T
http://rt.com/usa/air-jsf-f-35-cost-346/
http://www.wired.com/2012/03/f35-budget-disaster/

It is also not the world's most advanced fighter ... the T50 is going to be better ... and has a far smaller unit price (one fifth) so they can build more for less.
http://www.wired.com/2012/11/russia-stealth/

The T-50 is facing it's own fair share of issues, and India (a major funder of the PAK-FA program) has expressed serious concerns over what they're receiving from the Russians.

Russia has never maintained an edge in radar technology relative to the US, and the stealth of the T-50 is questionable given design choices like engine placement, engine blades being open to the front, etc. Russia has also cut down their order of the PAK-FA substantially, with a focus on more Su-35's.

It's highly unlikely that it's 1/5th the cost as well, as the F-35 is already pretty cheap.

[markjo]

This isn't WWII and we aren't fighting Hitler. Dogfights aren't even real anymore.

Tell that to Korea, Viet Nam and Gulf War fighter pilots. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

[Rushy]

This isn't WWII and we aren't fighting Hitler. Dogfights aren't even real anymore.

Tell that to Korea, Viet Nam and Gulf War fighter pilots. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

Hi, my name is Markjo and what is a dogfight?

[Rama Set]

This isn't WWII and we aren't fighting Hitler. Dogfights aren't even real anymore.

Tell that to Korea, Viet Nam and Gulf War fighter pilots. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

Hi, my name is Markjo and what is a dogfight?

Hi my name is Rushy and I didn't read anything Markjo linked to.

[Rushy]

This isn't WWII and we aren't fighting Hitler. Dogfights aren't even real anymore.

Tell that to Korea, Viet Nam and Gulf War fighter pilots. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

Hi, my name is Markjo and what is a dogfight?

Hi my name is Rushy and I didn't read anything Markjo linked to.

Even Markjo doesn't read the things Markjo links to. His posts exist in an attempt to waste your time. Did it work on you?