[Yaakov ben Avraham]

And if Jews can live so well under Islam, then why were 750,000 of them "invited" to leave Arab countries and migrate to Israel in 1948? Jews have lived about as well as Christians under Islam, paying the Jizya tax, converting to Islam, or being killed. The only difference is that at the same time in Europe their lot was even worse in many cases. Hardly a strong case for Islam. "We were assholes, were just were slightly less so than the Christians."

[Lord Dave]

And if Jews can live so well under Islam, then why were 750,000 of them "invited" to leave Arab countries and migrate to Israel in 1948? Jews have lived about as well as Christians under Islam, paying the Jizya tax, converting to Islam, or being killed. The only difference is that at the same time in Europe their lot was even worse in many cases. Hardly a strong case for Islam. "We were assholes, were just were slightly less so than the Christians."

Have you considered the possibility that the Jews in general suck?  I mean, to have two (or more) different groups of people over thousands of years dislike Jews can't just be ignorant hate

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Have you ever considered the possibility that how a nation treats its Jews will tell you what kind of nation it is? Since Jews make up less than .02% of the world's population but have received a stunning 22% of the Nobel Prizes to date, I would suggest that you are making yourself look like a schmuck. Since if it weren't for us, neither Christianity or Islam could exist (both depend on the Hebrew Scriptures), I suggest you be a little more grateful, and less arrogant, you pompous ass.

Beyond that, you never considered that while Muslims were mistreating Jews, they were doing the same exact thing to Christians under their control. There were no Muslims under Christian control, so that point is moot (at least not many, lets put it that way).

[Rama Set]

Do you fail most of your essays?  You make terribly incoherent arguments.

[Particle Person]

Since if it weren't for us, neither Christianity or Islam could exist (both depend on the Hebrew Scriptures)

Isn't Islam terrible, though?

[beardo]

It is.

[Lord Wilmore]

I never said it isn't a factor, but the majority of dislike for Israel is because of what it has done, not what it is.

Possibly, but I think it's weird how so many people want to pretend antisemitism has gone away in the west, or that it isn't widespread. A lot of people believe in conspiracy theories. A lot of conspiracies feature zionists and the arch-conspirators. Anti-zionism has been a pretext for antisemitism for well over a century at this point. This runs deep in our culture, and it didn't just vanish in 1945.

I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well

Uhh, yeah. That is actually precisely what I am saying. Except not people, persons. For example, persons like Yaakov are responsible for Jewish stereotypes and hatred. It only takes one to sow hatred for thousands. One bad black person could result in a thousand good black people taking flak.

[/quote]


Stereotyping is always the responsibility of the 'stereotyper', because they are the one taking the faults of an individual and wrongly applying them to everyone in their group. Someone of a given background being an asshole in whatever form is not sufficient reason to tar everyone from that background with the same brush.

Have you considered the possibility that the Jews in general suck?  I mean, to have two (or more) different groups of people over thousands of years dislike Jews can't just be ignorant hate

Black people, women... do I have to do this again?

[Rushy]

Possibly, but I think it's weird how so many people want to pretend antisemitism has gone away in the west, or that it isn't widespread. A lot of people believe in conspiracy theories. A lot of conspiracies feature zionists and the arch-conspirators. Anti-zionism has been a pretext for antisemitism for well over a century at this point. This runs deep in our culture, and it didn't just vanish in 1945.

Well, I have an idea. To stop anti-zionism, Israel should stop murdering swathes of people and taking their land. If you want people to like you, do things people like. You can't do whatever the hell you want, then complain because people don't like you for doing it, and you sure as hell can't patsy it onto "well they're just racist". If they can stop destroying their surroundings for a bit, maybe then the people who hate them because they do terrible things will die off and you'll be left with the people who hate them because racism.

Stereotyping is always the responsibility of the 'stereotyper', because they are the one taking the faults of an individual and wrongly applying them to everyone in their group. Someone of a given background being an asshole in whatever form is not sufficient reason to tar everyone from that background with the same brush.

It would help if the group as a whole ousted the bad nuts. I'm not sure how crazy Yaakov is in his own life (or even if he is just an elaborate troll) but it seems like if a Jew such as him existed, whatever radical synagogue he attends would be denounced and disowned.

Furthermore stereotyping is a basic human psychological event. You can try to stomp it out, but there is no "un-learning" it. Your brain will always try to put things into neat little boxes because that is what it is programmed to do. You can only stop the events you are fully aware of and I guarantee there is no one on this planet that can stop every single one of them. Instead of trying to stop that you should probably concern yourself with stopping the bad apples from ruining the whole bunch. It's just like when you said my idea to make Israel unexist is dumb. Yeah, it is, but your "don't stereotype" idea is just the same kind of idealism.

[Lord Wilmore]

Well, I have an idea. To stop anti-zionism, Israel should stop murdering swathes of people and taking their land. If you want people to like you, do things people like. You can't do whatever the hell you want, then complain because people don't like you for doing it, and you sure as hell can't patsy it onto "well they're just racist". If they can stop destroying their surroundings for a bit, maybe then the people who hate them because they do terrible things will die off and you'll be left with the people who hate them because racism.

Yes, this will undoubtedly stop anti-Zionism, which does not in any way predate the state of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

And Hitler etc.

It would help if the group as a whole ousted the bad nuts. I'm not sure how crazy Yaakov is in his own life (or even if he is just an elaborate troll) but it seems like if a Jew such as him existed, whatever radical synagogue he attends would be denounced and disowned.

Furthermore stereotyping is a basic human psychological event. You can try to stomp it out, but there is no "un-learning" it. Your brain will always try to put things into neat little boxes because that is what it is programmed to do. You can only stop the events you are fully aware of and I guarantee there is no one on this planet that can stop every single one of them. Instead of trying to stop that you should probably concern yourself with stopping the bad apples from ruining the whole bunch. It's just like when you said my idea to make Israel unexist is dumb. Yeah, it is, but your "don't stereotype" idea is just the same kind of idealism.

I'm not saying it can be prevented, but we can still apportion blame appropriately. I don't think we'll ever prevent all rape, but doesn't imply it's the vitim's fault rather than the rapist's. I'm not talking about an idealist post-racial world, but apportioning blame correctly.

[Rushy]

Yes, this will undoubtedly stop anti-Zionism, which does not in any way predate the state of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

And Hitler etc.

Yes, the idea that Jews own a piece of land "because we were like, totally there a long time ago" does generate quite a bit of hatred. Maybe they should have stopped coveting other people's lands.

I'm not saying it can be prevented, but we can still apportion blame appropriately. I don't think we'll ever prevent all rape, but doesn't imply it's the vitim's fault rather than the rapist's. I'm not talking about an idealist post-racial world, but apportioning blame correctly.

It only makes sense that both sides take preventative measures to solve the problem. Playing the blame game does literally nothing.

[Lord Wilmore]

Yes, the idea that Jews own a piece of land "because we were like, totally there a long time ago" does generate quite a bit of hatred. Maybe they should have stopped coveting other people's lands.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Europeans and Arabs were anti-zionist is because they "coveted other people's lands"? Really?

It only makes sense that both sides take preventative measures to solve the problem. Playing the blame game does literally nothing.

Uh, but you are playing the blame game. Just really badly.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I would suggest that Arabs grow up. They have 22 countries they can choose to call home, 21 of which are majority Muslim, and one of which is mixed confessionalism (Lebanon). Israel is the only Jewish State on the planet, and they allow for freedom of religion within the State. Grow up, put on your fucking big boy pants, and learn to accept the fait accompli, welcome to the real world.

[Rushy]

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Europeans and Arabs were anti-zionist is because they "coveted other people's lands"? Really?

Yes.

Uh, but you are playing the blame game. Just really badly.

Really? Where? Because I've done nothing but suggest ways for Jews to help themselves in a non-violent manner, rather than yelling at or killing everyone who dislikes them. Is this all you have left, Wilmore? I've been more than appropriate to your poisonous attitude these past few pages.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

They try to kill us, we kill them first. That is how any country would handle including your own.

[Rushy]

They try to kill us, we kill them first. That is how any country would handle including your own.

Israel's citizens chose to move onto land knowing they'd be surrounded by people who want to kill them (funnily enough, the very same people who owned the land Israel moved onto). If that isn't asking for a fight, I don't know what is. Anything that has happened to Israel thus far is a result of Israel being too stupid to resolve the situation.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Actually, no. The land they bought during the period of immigration to Ottoman Palestine was largely owned by absentee Ottoman landlords who largely lived in Turkey or Syria, and it was bought at often three to four times the market value, with understanding that the rights of the resident felahin would not be infringed. This was, for the most part, scrupulously observed by the Jewish owners. You really are out of touch, aren't you?

[The Terror]

Beyond that, you never considered that while Muslims were mistreating Jews, they were doing the same exact thing to Christians under their control. There were no Muslims under Christian control, so that point is moot (at least not many, lets put it that way).

What does this statement even mean? Are you talking about current events or historical events?

[Rushy]

Actually, no. The land they bought during the period of immigration to Ottoman Palestine was largely owned by absentee Ottoman landlords who largely lived in Turkey or Syria, and it was bought at often three to four times the market value, with understanding that the rights of the resident felahin would not be infringed. This was, for the most part, scrupulously observed by the Jewish owners. You really are out of touch, aren't you?

Yes, the UN bought land carved out of the Ottoman Empire, in which most of the surrounding land and people was also part of. I'm not sure what your problem is, or why you're trying to be condescending when you're not even intelligent enough to be correct. Also, at the time of the land purchases, no one made mention that the UN intended to move a shitload of Jews onto it. This further angered the surrounding populace.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Perhaps you need to observe tenses better. I meant historically. Although most Muslim lands still treat their minorities like shit. And its clear that you, IRUSH, are the idiot. I am speaking before the useless UN existed. We're talking at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. You seriously need to go read a little history. After that, perhaps you can come back and have a halfway intelligent conversation.

[Rushy]

Perhaps you need to observe tenses better. I meant historically. Although most Muslim lands still treat their minorities like shit. And its clear that you, IRUSH, are the idiot. I am speaking before the useless UN existed. We're talking at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. You seriously need to go read a little history. After that, perhaps you can come back and have a halfway intelligent conversation.

You've resorted to dodging the discussion now. I'm sure you'll start it back up again after some Wikipedia adventures. Don't worry, I'll wait.