Thork

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #200 on: August 22, 2014, 04:16:49 PM »
I told you you are an idiot because you call us a race. You are correct insofar as you call us an ethnic group.
You are a cabbage.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #201 on: August 22, 2014, 04:19:54 PM »
I'll be sure to keep that in mind. *GRIN* And you are pickled Rocky Mountain Oysters! JUST JOKING!

Seriously, all kidding around aside, I've enjoyed our little chat, but I've some work to get to. I shall be back later. I trust that all of you will be civilised in my absence. Chat with you all later. Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

Saddam Hussein

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #202 on: August 22, 2014, 04:26:43 PM »
You really don't need to keep announcing your departure like that.  This is a message board, not a chatroom.

Thork

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #203 on: August 22, 2014, 04:30:08 PM »
But what if we need him, Saddam?

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Offline Tau

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #204 on: August 22, 2014, 04:41:25 PM »
Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

This isn't saying much. I'm getting the impression that straightup genocide is not included in the list of Things You Would Not Do.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2014, 07:33:27 PM »
You are asking for an impossible task. Israel last existed in 70 CE. Last I checked, there were no terrorists around them in 70 CE.
False.  Romans would be considered terrorists against the Jews but also JEWS!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html

The great Revolt of 66 CE.  Lots of radical Jews that just slaughtered each other.  If I had to guess, I'd say they were acting no different than the ISIS, except the ISIS isn't burning food stocks.


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As for citations re: the truth of the Exodus, I was just reading about it recently, but I don't have said source with me.
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/virtualtalmud/2007/03/truth-of-exodus.html
The Truth of the Exodus by Rabbi Joshua Waxman
It seems your citation contradicts your statement.

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The difference between Jews and the Ten Plagues of Egypt and Muslims being told to STFU until being called upon is that we are actually members of the civilized world. They live, by choice I might add, in the Seventh Century, and therefore, should have no say in how the world conducts itself.
Considering that computers, telephones, and electricity didn't exist int eh 7th century, I'm finding it difficult to see why you say this.  Or do you feel that the laws of the land are from the 7th century?  In which case I'd point to the arab nations with women being allowed to vote, the laws regarding advanced financial transactions, and the DIFC in the UAE.  Not to mention OPEC.

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Argue with me all you want. I don't much care what you have to say. The fact is, guess what? Israel is here to stay. You can bitch about it all you like, but its not going anywhere. WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!!!
I'm sure they said the same thing in 69CE.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #206 on: August 22, 2014, 09:00:42 PM »
As regards the truth of the Exodus, I don't HAVE a citation with me. Nor do I have time to find one now, since that isn't the topic of discussion, though I do know that I was reading about it just last week. I never claimed here to have said citation. Incidentally, the author of what I was reading was a Rabbi, and quoted Rabbi Waxman, and challenged what he had to say on the subject.

Re: The Great Revolt of 66 CE, point granted, except insofar as back then, wars were brutally fought and won or lost as the case may be, since the Geneva Conventions were not exactly invented. We expect better out of people today than we did in 66 CE.

So, Arabs don't live in the 7th Century because they have computers and women can vote? First off, I'd like to know how much the vote means in ANY Arab society. Since none of the nations there are rated democratic or even partially so except Israel, who cares if women can vote or not? Your point?

And no, I doubt they were saying similar things in 69 CE. Given that revolts are usually preceded by internal disturbances and great amounts of political intrigue, it is doubtful that all was peaceful. They were probably being unusually oppressed by Rome, and were likely heartily sick of it.

Since what I propose is not genocide, yes, that IS on the list of Things I Would Not Do. Don't be juvenile.

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2014, 09:11:55 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East

Quote from: off of wikipedia
According to the "Democracy Index," a measure of the level of democracy in nations throughout the world published by the Freedom House and Economist, the Middle Eastern countries with the highest scores are Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait and Morocco. Countries that are occasionally classified as partly democratic are Egypt, Tunisia and Iraq. The remaining countries of the Middle East are categorized as authoritarian regimes, with the lowest scores held by Saudi Arabia and Yemen.


Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #208 on: August 22, 2014, 10:02:32 PM »
 QUOTE: "the Middle Eastern countries with the highest scores are Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait and Morocco."

Lebanon has a strictly confessional state whereby the President must belong to one faith, the Prime Minister another, The Vice President yet another, the Deputy Prime Minister yet another, and so-on, and so many slots in the legislative branch must be reserved for this faith or that. That result has been civil war or near civil war since 1975.

Turkey has been fairly democratic, but is now leaning toward Islamic fundamental crap under Erdogan, who is playing games with the Constitution of the country.

Kuwait is an Emirate. The Emir holds ultimate power, should he choose to exercise it. Morocco is a Kingdom. The King holds ultimate power, should he choose to exercise it.

And I'm not criticising either man. In fact, I happen to think the King of Morocco is a pretty decent fellow, but that doesn't change the fact that he could be absolute monarch if he so chose.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #209 on: August 22, 2014, 10:55:53 PM »
As regards the truth of the Exodus, I don't HAVE a citation with me. Nor do I have time to find one now, since that isn't the topic of discussion, though I do know that I was reading about it just last week. I never claimed here to have said citation. Incidentally, the author of what I was reading was a Rabbi, and quoted Rabbi Waxman, and challenged what he had to say on the subject.
Two Rabbis can't be right.  One must be wrong.  And if we conclude that a Rabbi can be wrong, then we must also conclude that ANY Rabbi can be wrong.
Of course, he one Rabbi challenged what another said, it can't be as solidly factual as you seem to imply.
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We expect better out of people today than we did in 66 CE.
???   Why would you say that?  We still have wars.  We still have fights.  We still have murders.  We still have thefts.  We still have liars.  We still have leaders who oppress their people.  We still have tyrants.  What, exactly, do we have that's so different than the 7th century and why do we expect better?  Especially considering that we had good people back then too.

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So, Arabs don't live in the 7th Century because they have computers and women can vote? First off, I'd like to know how much the vote means in ANY Arab society. Since none of the nations there are rated democratic or even partially so except Israel, who cares if women can vote or not? Your point?
About as much as a vote means in 18th century America.  You know, where only land owning white men can vote and have any power?

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And no, I doubt they were saying similar things in 69 CE. Given that revolts are usually preceded by internal disturbances and great amounts of political intrigue, it is doubtful that all was peaceful. They were probably being unusually oppressed by Rome, and were likely heartily sick of it.
...
You... you don't even read your own quotes?
I was pointing out that the Jews most likely felt that Israel was not going to be defeated by Rome and that they would last forever. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2014, 12:13:06 AM »
I expect that many Jews probably knew that their chances against the might of Rome were less than excellent. As far the two Rabbis, its true. They can't both be right. They could of course, both be wrong, in theory. The Rabbi I was reading about described evidences that a tribe of Levites left Egypt at the time of the Exodus.

Well, if you think that we can't expect better out of people today than we could in 66 CE, then you ought not criticise Israel for its handling of Hamas. In fact, they are doing a remarkable job of trying to preserve civilian life, given that they throw leaflets, make phone calls, issue text messages, and roof knock to get people to leave before taking out buildings. It is Hamas that orders civilians to stay in buildings in spite of these warnings.

Please note that I am NOT saying that Israel is perfect. I am sure that mistakes are made. It is a war, and people are killed. That is unfortunate. I am sure some civilian sites have mistakenly been hit. This is sad, but is often unavoidable, especially when Hamas uses such places as sites for weapons storage, and as places to maintain rocket launchers from which they actually attack Israel.  Using civilians as human shields makes them legitimate targets.

Given that America in the 18th Century actually had more human rights than any nation in history, I would say your commentary is  silly, verging on the outright stupid. Although the goal, of course, is to widen suffrage, rather than restrict it, and this has been done both in America, Britain, and in other countries, if you look at the times, America was doing quite well. No nation in the world allowed women or non-whites to vote. In fact, except for Britain, no nation allowed anyone to vote, per se. France did to a certain degree, I suppose, but they kept moving from Republic to Empire to Kingdom to Republic again, so...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:16:32 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2014, 01:30:13 AM »
I expect that many Jews probably knew that their chances against the might of Rome were less than excellent. As far the two Rabbis, its true. They can't both be right. They could of course, both be wrong, in theory. The Rabbi I was reading about described evidences that a tribe of Levites left Egypt at the time of the Exodus.
Good, now that we've established you have no evidence of your original claim on that subject, we can move on.

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Well, if you think that we can't expect better out of people today than we could in 66 CE, then you ought not criticise Israel for its handling of Hamas. In fact, they are doing a remarkable job of trying to preserve civilian life, given that they throw leaflets, make phone calls, issue text messages, and roof knock to get people to leave before taking out buildings. It is Hamas that orders civilians to stay in buildings in spite of these warnings.
Not really.  In a world of instant news, not being seen as a butcher is very important.  I'm sure quite a few kings did the same, or at least kept it quiet by killing everyone.

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Please note that I am NOT saying that Israel is perfect. I am sure that mistakes are made. It is a war, and people are killed. That is unfortunate. I am sure some civilian sites have mistakenly been hit. This is sad, but is often unavoidable, especially when Hamas uses such places as sites for weapons storage, and as places to maintain rocket launchers from which they actually attack Israel.  Using civilians as human shields makes them legitimate targets.
A civilized country would hold their fire when presented with human shields.  Don't you agree?  Isn't that the point of a human shield?


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Given that America in the 18th Century actually had more human rights than any nation in history, I would say your commentary is  silly, verging on the outright stupid. Although the goal, of course, is to widen suffrage, rather than restrict it, and this has been done both in America, Britain, and in other countries, if you look at the times, America was doing quite well. No nation in the world allowed women or non-whites to vote. In fact, except for Britain, no nation allowed anyone to vote, per se. France did to a certain degree, I suppose, but they kept moving from Republic to Empire to Kingdom to Republic again, so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_suffrage#18th_century

Yeah no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#18th_and_19th_centuries

For a history major, Wikipedia seems to know more than you.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2014, 02:51:43 AM »
Having not studied women's suffrage, I'm not overly well informed on the matter, no. But you'll notice that a lot of it was provincial or city, some of it was temporary. One can hold an advanced degree and not know the entire planet's history. Women's suffrage is not of particular interest to me. The point that I am making is that the USA did a pretty good job of advancing the vote, far better than most societies. And the vote actually meant something in America, when you could vote for national office, unlike Sweden, where you couldn't exactly vote for your King.

If an enemy uses human shields, you have to take out the targets they are shielding, to prevent those targets from being used against you. Therefore, you need to target such things, and after warning the people in the area, attack them. If they are stupid enough not to move people, that is their problem.

It should be noted that Wikipedia, though it does have faults, has some very good writers. If you observe the references, they are mostly highly respectable publications written by people with advanced degrees in their fields.

Regarding the question concerning the Rabbis, more and more evidence is coming to prove at least a partial Exodus from Egypt, though not on a scale of 2 million. Again, I don't have the reference. I would encourage you to find the references yourself. I have already done so, and at this point, at my age, I am inclined to take some things on faith. Again, it is not a problem for me. If it is for you, I expect that you should resolve the matter for yourself.

America may not have been ahead of the entire planet, but it was ahead of most places. Canada was still a part of the British Empire. In fact, Canadians were still at the mercy of the  British Parliament until 1982, at least officially. But hey, I stand corrected. Point granted regarding the vote.

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Offline Tau

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2014, 12:26:58 PM »
If an enemy uses human shields, you have to take out the targets they are shielding, to prevent those targets from being used against you. Therefore, you need to target such things, and after warning the people in the area, attack them. If they are stupid enough not to move people, that is their problem.

Police officers generally do not abide by this logic, at least as far as I'm aware. You don't slaughter civilians and then turn around and cry that they made you do it. Victim blaming is not okay.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2014, 01:27:09 PM »
No, you don't slaughter them. You warn them to get the hell out of the way, and then you give them sufficient time to move. Then you attack. Their failure to move then becomes their problem and not yours.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2014, 01:47:45 PM »
No, you don't slaughter them. You warn them to get the hell out of the way, and then you give them sufficient time to move. Then you attack. Their failure to move then becomes their problem and not yours.
1. You assume they can move.  If I had a human shield, I would not allow them to stop being my human shield.  Kinda defeats the point.

2. So the UN school was warned ahead of time?

3. If Hama's did the same thing to the west bank, would Jews listen?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2014, 01:52:08 PM »
The UN school may or may not have been warned. I don't know, since the news is hardly trustworthy, and I wasn't there. I never said the IDF was perfect. If they can't move, then Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths, not Israel. The third point makes no sense, since Hamas is not in charge of the West Bank.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2014, 01:58:02 PM »
The UN school may or may not have been warned. I don't know, since the news is hardly trustworthy, and I wasn't there. I never said the IDF was perfect. If they can't move, then Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths, not Israel. The third point makes no sense, since Hamas is not in charge of the West Bank.

If the news is untrustworthy then how do you know Hama's uses human shields?  How do you know people were warned? 

Replace west bank with whatever area Hama's usually shells.  I can't remember which area it is.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2014, 02:02:33 PM »
Israeli news reports that much. But even they are not sure if the school was warned or not. I am the first to admit, right now, it doesn't look as though it was.This was a pretty big fuck-up. And Jews don't use human shields.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2014, 02:06:35 PM »
Israeli news reports that much. But even they are not sure if the school was warned or not. I am the first to admit, right now, it doesn't look as though it was.This was a pretty big fuck-up. And Jews don't use human shields.
But the news is untrustworthy.

So you're saying that building settlements in areas contested and often attacked is OK as is letting people stay in often attacked areas?
Jews in Israel must be stupid.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.