The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: uru38 on February 26, 2019, 05:12:57 PM

Title: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: uru38 on February 26, 2019, 05:12:57 PM
I can't find an explanation anywhere online, including on your wiki, as to why the sun is viewed to set (or rise) exactly east (or west) for all observers on a flat earth during the equinoxes. I believe this would be exactly what is expected on a spherical earth. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on any flat earth explanation here. Thanks in advance.

Edit: I meant to write "rising" in the title not setting. Have now corrected it.
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2019, 07:09:36 PM
I can't find an explanation anywhere online, including on your wiki

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on February 26, 2019, 11:18:54 PM
First lets be clear that the Sun always rises in the east and sets in the west regardless of your location on Earth.  North of the equator the Sun swings to the south so shadows point north. South of the equator the opposite is true.  If anybody ever happens to take a vacation on Venus they will find the Sun rises in the west and sets in the east. That is just because Venus' axial tilt is 178 degrees and so it is effectively upside down with reversed apparent rotation direction. You would never see the Sun though from the surface of Venus as it is entirely enshrouded in poisonous cloud.

At the time of the Equinox (vernal or autumnal), the Suns declination on the sky is zero degrees. In other words it sits on the celestial equator. This is an imaginary line or circle which is projected upwards onto the sky directly over the equator. So for anyone situated on the equator of the Earth, the Sun will pass directly overhead at local noon. Any members who live at or very near the equator can verify for themselves that on either of the two equinoxes, the Sun will rise directly east and set directly west.

The same will apply to any other latitude.  The Sun swings 23.5 degrees either side of the celestial equator during the course of the year but on any given day the RA and Dec of the Sun is the same for everyone on Earth. That can be checked by simple observation. I know Tom won't accept any evidence of this from planetarium software because that would be based on RET 'patterns' and so invalid to him. So instead just check for yourselves in the sky and the facts will speak for themselves.
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: uru38 on February 27, 2019, 11:09:06 AM

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on February 27, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
uru38,

The best I can offer on this one is that the Suns orbital circle over the flat Earth surface varies in radius to account for how we observe the Sun to move during the year.  What mechanisms are behind making the Sun move like that in FE theory are however (as you suggest) unknown as far as I can tell unless they have figured that out now.
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: uru38 on February 27, 2019, 02:10:43 PM
Hey manicminer,
Yes I believe that's the flat earth explanation for seasons. But I'm simply talking about observing the sun to rise east for any observer. On a flat Earth those living in south america would see the sun rise at an azimuth of smaller than 45 degrees from north which isn't observed even with the consideration of changes due to atmospheric refraction. Tom's link does try and give an explanation:

Quote
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East. The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the equator or the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how the sun appears in its initial bearing.

But I'm not understanding any of that and so I was hoping I could get some clarification here (maybe even with some diagrams). Maybe bendy light plays a role but again, I haven't yet been able to find an explanation of such affects anywhere.

Can any flat Earthers help me out?
Title: Re: The sun setting exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on February 27, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
Well the vernal equinox is coming up here in the northern hemisphere in a couple of weeks. One way to test this is to observe and measure the observed azimuth of the Sun from my location at 51.5N at the time of Sunrise. I have a permanent telescope set up in my back garden with a good view of the east horizon.  So I can measure the observed azimuth of the Sun as it rises.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: uru38 on February 27, 2019, 06:18:18 PM
Awesome I think that's a great idea. We just need a flat earther to outline what would be expected for a flat Earth model and then we can compare this, and the expectations for a globe earth, to the results. I'll make a post in the investigations forum.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2019, 10:47:26 PM

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on February 27, 2019, 10:53:33 PM
Yes your link might well address things from the FE point of view Tom but aren't you interested in whether evidence from real world observations support that point of view? 
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: markjo on February 28, 2019, 05:09:03 PM

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox
Except that it really isn't addressed.  That section starts out saying that you can't see to infinity, which is completely irrelevant because you can see far enough to see the sun as it appears to rise from behind the horizon.  It then rambles on about how if an object is close enough then the circular equator seems to straighten out somewhat.  That is also completely irrelevant because the sun is 90 degrees of longitude away at sun rise.

Tom, would you agree that this diagram reasonably (if somewhat crudely) depicts the relative positions of the sun at sunrise and sunset and an observer on the equator on the day of an equinox?  If so, then please explain why sunrise should appear directly east and sunset should appear directly west.  If not, then please provide a more accurate diagram.
(http://i38.tinypic.com/s4qrg7.jpg)
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: MCToon on February 28, 2019, 07:57:26 PM

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Thank you for the link, but it doesn't actually explain it.  The horizontal angle observation is very nearly 90 degrees due east, not perfectly 90 degrees, granted.  However, I cannot conceive of a possible landmass orientation that allows these angles to happen at the same time on that day.

From the article:
Quote
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East. The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the equator or the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how the sun appears in its initial bearing.

This does not explain how an observer in southern Chile or Iceland sees the sun rise nearly due east.

Finally, from the article:
Quote
If you were on the equator, and there was a race car (or jet ski) racing along the surface of the earth to you on the circular equator line, and you only see it until it is nearby, would you see it from the East or very near the East? If so, then that is the answer.
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise dues east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set dues west is one with a straight equator.  However, this requires Pac-Man.

So, there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.


Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 28, 2019, 08:54:00 PM
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: stack on February 28, 2019, 09:04:49 PM
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. North West? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

If the race car or jet ski is 32 miles wide and 3000 miles high in the sky they would appear out of the North East and disappear out of the North West.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 28, 2019, 09:12:04 PM
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. North West? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

If the race car or jet ski is 32 miles wide and 3000 miles high in the sky they would appear out of the North East and disappear out of the North West.

Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere, with the exception of some oddities, how is that the case?

We only see the sun's projection on the atmolayer when it is nearby, just like we can only see jet ski when it is nearby. When things are far away, we don't see them. We don't see Mount Everest at all times, for example.

You should probably find content which accurately addresses Flat Earth Theory before you post your "we should always see the sun" videos.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: markjo on February 28, 2019, 09:17:00 PM
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.
That still isn't addressing the question at hand.  We are not talking about a jet-ski traveling along the equator.  We are talking about the flat earth sun that is supposedly some 3000 miles above the equator. 

Tom, do you agree that on the day of the equinox the sun is 90 degrees of longitude away from an observer on the equator at the time of sunrise or sunset as shown in this diagram?
(http://i38.tinypic.com/s4qrg7.jpg)
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: TomFoolery on February 28, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. What are you talking about? You are just making things up about how things should be. Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

So how far away is the sun when it "sets" ?

If the earth is 24,000 miles across, and you're in Australia during the summer, it sets 7 hours after high noon, when it is about overhead.
The distance from central Australia to the sun just before it sets would be about 12,000 miles.
Too far? Let's make the earth only 8000 miles across.
Then the sun is only 3,800 miles away.
But we don't want to make the earth too small, because Australia is somewhere between 2400 and 5000 miles long, and as we know, it's not the only continent we have.

So depending on the size of the flat earth, then we can see the sun somewhere between at least 4,000 miles, maybe up to 12,000 miles.

And the crux of this is that regardless of the size of the earth, 7 hours after high noon in central Australia during the longest day of the year there, the sun's actual Azimuth will be about 53 degrees to the right of due west.

Am I totally confused or what's going on here?
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: MCToon on February 28, 2019, 09:28:41 PM
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.



This is the expected observation:
When the sun first "rises" it is about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.  The observer will see it first appear North East.  As the sin continues to rise it will move towards dues east.  When the sun passes overhead at local solar noon it will pass from due east.  As the sun continues to travel it will move North West until is finally "sets" about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.

The position of the sun is dictated by the map.  This clearly doesn't match observations.  Not good news for the AE map.

The observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.  On that day the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise due east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set due west is one with a straight equator.  However, this generally requires a Pac-Man feature.  Few people like to go with a Pac-Man map.

Quote
We only see the sun's projection on the atmolayer when it is nearby...
I have never seen evidence suggesting the sun is projected onto the air.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote
Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere
This is not a given.  We can see the stars through ALL the atmosphere as they are just above the horizon.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



It seems there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.

Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 28, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: MCToon on February 28, 2019, 09:37:06 PM
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.

Ignore that post, and instead look at the one where I actually refer to the sun.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: stack on February 28, 2019, 10:21:49 PM
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.

In reality, what's the altitude of the sun over the plane? And, in reality, what's the altitude of a jet ski over the plane?
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: uru38 on March 01, 2019, 10:05:46 AM
Wow. I'm in shock. Thanks for the same link again Tom Bishop. I was going to ask for some clarification because most of what is written on that Wiki doesn't make any sense. Others have already asked though and something has now become clear to me: you're in such deep intellectual denial I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise. Either that or you really don't understand the issue of the Sun's position at equinox and likely other issues with flat Earth theory.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: MCToon on March 01, 2019, 08:05:15 PM
Wow. I'm in shock. Thanks for the same link again Tom Bishop. I was going to ask for some clarification because most of what is written on that Wiki doesn't make any sense. Others have already asked though and something has now become clear to me: you're in such deep intellectual denial I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise. Either that or you really don't understand the issue of the Sun's position at equinox and likely other issues with flat Earth theory.

Yeah, no surprises to be found here.  I'm still wondering about the disconnect on the wiki with how real world observations comport with flat earth.

Quote
During Equinox the sun is over the equator, with its circular area of light pivoting around the point of the North Pole. The points on the edge of the sun's circular area of light are tracing along the latitude lines, the time of the Equinox being a circle pivoting around itself. Further, the circlular latitude of the equator is very large, and if one were to zoom into a segment of that circle, down to human standards of an observer's relatively small circle of vision, down to a town/personal scale, the curve of the equator beneath the observer would straighten out. The latitude line beneath you locally is relatively straight.

Absolutely, looking at the line of the equator for just the short distance under your feet it will appear straight.  However, on the day of the equinox any observer on the equator sees the sun for about 50% of the sun's path around the equator.  This is not a zoomed in segment, it is a massive amount of it.  If the sun were traveling over "...the circlular latitude of the equator...", this would be apparent.  At sunrise the sun would appear North-East, move horizontally through it's course, pass directly overhead from due east, then continue to move horizontally and set North-West.  There is no playing with words to avoid this truth.  You may reject the AE style maps, this is reasonable, but the problem doesn't get solved.

To select a map consistent with observations on the equator on the day of the equinox you must select a map with a straight equator.  However, a flat map with a straight equator requires Pac-Manning, most people are not up for this.

So, once again, it seems there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation for a flat earth.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: TomFoolery on March 01, 2019, 09:38:11 PM

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

And the article which addresses that says:
Quote
Q. How can the sun rise from even within two degrees of Due East in the Flat Earth model?

A. This is a popular topic point, but is based on a common misconception. The top down views of the Flat Earth sun models might imply that the observer can see infinitely across the earth, and see the sun at all times. However, we cannot see infinitely into the distance. The distance to the our horizon is limited to a very finite circle around us. We cannot see that far. The distance to the horizon is limited by the thickness of the atmolayer. The atmolayer is not perfectly transparent. At night when we look out at where the sun would be across the plane of the earth we are looking into hundreds of miles of fog, and thus the sun is dark and unseen.
...

So, Mr. Bishop, if you might be so kind as to explain how that correlates with Australia and their 14 hours of daylight during their summer.

Seeing my attached diagram, you can see that them Australians can see the sun when it is just setting or rising, 7 hours away from high noon.
That distance just happens to be very close to half of the flat earth's diameter - so whatever you pick as the size of the earth, half that diameter is the distance the Australians are seeing the sun at sunset or sunrise.
(As a side note, how can northern Alaska be having 69 days of darkness at this exact season, when it's obviously closer to the sun?)

And does the sun really rise and set 53 degrees North of due east or due west?

I know you said wiki explains it but I'm having a hard time getting everything to jive in my head because well I'm just not that bright and since we know the sun goes around its path every 24 hours, it's plain to see that if them Australians can see the sun 7 hours after high noon during the summer, the sun must have traveled quite some distance, yes?

I would so value your explanation of this because I know you have a very high standard for science and would never believe it if you couldn't demonstrate it, nor would you resort to illusionary solutions.

To recap:
How can Australians see the sun 7 hours after it was directly overhead, even though it's thousands of miles away?
Do they really see it rise and set about 53 degrees north of due east/due west?
How can northern Alaska be suffering from 69 days of plague like darkness when it's closer to the sun then Australia is at sunset?

Thanks!
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: EartherUnMaster on March 06, 2019, 03:21:53 PM
(Sorry if this is a necro)
Reading the linked site on the FE Wiki, I'm getting the impression that one's 'local dome of visibility' and the maximum distance you can see the sun have two different radii? The article makes it clear that we only see a small part of the sun's circular path, making it appear straight and an east-west apparent motion possible. That is reinforced by:

Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere […]

If this is the case, then the sun is outside of our field of view, but it is still able to illuminate much more further out than that. If the sun is 3000 miles up then of course the sun has to be at least 3000 miles to someone experiencing noon, and more for anyone else at any other time. This is well outside the 30 mile range. What properties does the sun and other celestial bodies have that make them appear much further out than our maximum vision? Correct me if I have your explanation wrong
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: Mysfit on March 06, 2019, 06:15:06 PM
(Sorry if this is a necro)
Reading the linked site on the FE Wiki, I'm getting the impression that one's 'local dome of visibility' and the maximum distance you can see the sun have two different radii? The article makes it clear that we only see a small part of the sun's circular path, making it appear straight and an east-west apparent motion possible. That is reinforced by:

Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere […]

If this is the case, then the sun is outside of our field of view, but it is still able to illuminate much more further out than that. If the sun is 3000 miles up then of course the sun has to be at least 3000 miles to someone experiencing noon, and more for anyone else at any other time. This is well outside the 30 mile range. What properties does the sun and other celestial bodies have that make them appear much further out than our maximum vision? Correct me if I have your explanation wrong
I know where you're going wrong. Not to worry, you had me for a bit there too.
This assumes that from the ground to the sun is ALL atmosphere, I bet that a big chunk of it is space.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: JCM on March 06, 2019, 09:05:46 PM
(Sorry if this is a necro)
Reading the linked site on the FE Wiki, I'm getting the impression that one's 'local dome of visibility' and the maximum distance you can see the sun have two different radii? The article makes it clear that we only see a small part of the sun's circular path, making it appear straight and an east-west apparent motion possible. That is reinforced by:

Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere […]

If this is the case, then the sun is outside of our field of view, but it is still able to illuminate much more further out than that. If the sun is 3000 miles up then of course the sun has to be at least 3000 miles to someone experiencing noon, and more for anyone else at any other time. This is well outside the 30 mile range. What properties does the sun and other celestial bodies have that make them appear much further out than our maximum vision? Correct me if I have your explanation wrong
I know where you're going wrong. Not to worry, you had me for a bit there too.
This assumes that from the ground to the sun is ALL atmosphere, I bet that a big chunk of it is space.

Luckily for us, the atmosphere appears to extend beyond the Moon! Well, at least enough detectable Hydrogen atoms are out there...

https://www.space.com/amp/earth-atmosphere-extends-beyond-moon.html

Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: EartherUnMaster on March 07, 2019, 08:53:41 PM
I know where you're going wrong. Not to worry, you had me for a bit there too.
This assumes that from the ground to the sun is ALL atmosphere, I bet that a big chunk of it is space.

It's good to get a response. Let me see if I am visualizing this right.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/n6846f.png)

Pardon my crude drawing, obviously simplified and out of scale - instead of the simple dome as by the left part of the image, our true field of vision in 3-D space is more of a dual-lobed figure like the one on the right? As the atmosphere gets thinner, the light from outside sources can travel further distances, extending the range of vision further out in the sky, and allowing us to see the celestial bodies. Any heavenly body (sun, stars) that we see on the horizon must be passing through the sloped cone on the outer lobe. Anything outside of the field is invisible to our eyes. Is this correct?
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: tomfullery on March 09, 2019, 03:43:32 PM
 Hello everyone,
 
  We're in luck the equinox isn't too far away. We can watch sunrise, the sun move across the sky and sunset on March 20. I think you can tell a lot just by lookin.
   On the spherical earth the sun is real far away 93,000,000 miles so when the sun rises over the equator it is due east for everyone on earth, got that. I live at 38 degrees north latitude so the sun should rise from the horizon due east and travel up at an angle of 38 degrees south of vertical, be 38 degrees south of vertical overhead at noon, and set or travel down at an angle of 38 degrees south of vertical. The Sun should travel sort of on a plane circling around the center of the earth. And should be visible for right at 12 hours or half its journey.
   On the flat earth at equinox the sun is at 3,000 miles up and travels over the equator. If the sun is visible for 12 hours or half its journey as it circles overhead, the sun should appear at sunrise traveling due south circling around south of me turning west and then circling and traveling due north at time of disappearance or sunset, as it is visible for half its journey. The sun should travel as though it is on a plane circling overhead with polaris at its center.
   This is just my reasoning or the way it seems to me so I know I've made mistakes. Especially on flat earth as I don't really understand it or how the apparent sun works.
 
   If someone who lives at a different latitude than me would tell me at what angle from vertical the sun rises from on the equinox would be helpful. Manicminer at 51.5 degrees north, for you the sun should rise at 51.5 degrees from vertical on round earth.

   Also on Tom's wiki link, I believe it shows the chart for equal day and night with 90 degrees south, Antarctica, having half year day and half year night. That couldn't be right. I could be reading it wrong, wouldn't be first time.
   Please flat and round earthers be nice as this is my first post.
 You can tell a lot just by lookin.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on March 09, 2019, 04:33:35 PM
Quote
If someone who lives at a different latitude than me would tell me at what angle from vertical the sun rises from on the equinox would be helpful. Manicminer at 51.5 degrees north, for you the sun should rise at 51.5 degrees from vertical on round earth.

I can confirm that to be true because I have measured it. Last year I measured the altitude of the Sun 30, 60,90 and 120 minutes after sunrise on the day of the spring equinox. By joining these points to form a line and then extrapolating that line so it intersected with a second horizontal line to represent the horizon, the angle between the lines was 51 degrees.  This also confirmed that within a few minutes of arc the Suns rising point was due east.

I used a Meade LX200 telescope which was mounted in alt azimuth mode with the tripod first levelled using a circular bubble level. The declination setting circle on the fork mount therefore measured the altitude of the Sun. To ensure the Sun was centred in the FOV I used a full aperture white light solar filter and a low powered, reticle eyepiece to create a cross hair. I then made sure than the Suns disk was accurately centred in the FOV and then read off the Suns altitude on the setting circle.

I think the above counts as a genuine investigation based purely on observation. I had my prediction, based on a hypothesis and I was able to confirm that hypothesis through direct observation.  Conclusion based on observed data:  Prediction confirmed.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: tomfullery on March 09, 2019, 06:31:05 PM
Sorry tomfoolery didn't mean to steal your name will try to change it, thought it sounded good. Couldn't remember where I seen it.

   My observations of the equinox was made many years ago. Like the 60's. I had an equatorial mount telescope, little cheapie no electronics just a little drive motor. Point the axis of pivot on the north star. Polaris was 38 degrees above north horizon, celestial equator is 90 degrees from north star. So anythng on celestial equator would rise due east at an angle of 38 degrees from vertical with the telescope following it at 38 degrees from vertical till it set.
  The moon follows close to the ecliptic and crosses the celestial equator twice a month. While the moon crosses the celestial equator it follows practically the same path as the sun at equinox.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on March 09, 2019, 08:13:34 PM
Quote
The moon follows close to the ecliptic and crosses the celestial equator twice a month

Correct. The moon follows a path through the sky which is inclined by 5 degrees to the ecliptic. That is because the plane of the Moons orbit around the Earth is inclined by 5 degrees to the Earths orbit around the Sun.  So from our viewpoint on Earth we see the Moon move +/- 5 degrees from the ecliptic. The Earths shadow on the sky is rather less which is why we don't see a lunar eclipse every month. 

A fifty year time span is nothing on the celestial sphere in terms of the motion of the Sun and Moon. So your observations are just as relevant as mine are. An equatorial mount aligns with the celestial sphere so by pointing the polar axis at the celestial north (or south) pole you can follow celestial targets with just one direction of motion (RA).  If you were located at the north or south pole then the equatorial mount becomes an alt-azimuth because the celestial pole is directly overhead. Any star with a declination of (90 - your latitude) will pass through your overhead point or zenith.

When I made my observations with the LX200 I didn't bother to turn the electronics on.  Didn't need to.  I just locked the axes of the mount and then used the slow motion controls to centre the Sun in the FOV.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: tomfullery on March 09, 2019, 08:43:22 PM
 On the wiki document it says the sun rise at the equinox varies as much as “multiple sun diameters” . At 38 degrees north I know the sun rises due east within a degree or two, maybe closer than that, will check on equinox day. I would like to know where the sun rises at “multiple sun diameters” from due east. This is something we may need to look into. They say at the north and south poles it just circles the horizon. But if its circling overhead it seems it would have to come from the north headed south. Will study and try to understand the “apparent sun” and how it affects sunrise.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on March 09, 2019, 08:57:29 PM
Well you have your observations at 38 degrees and I have mine at 51.5 degrees. The Suns diameter on the sky is half a degree so multiple sun diameters would be in the order of a few degrees.  There would seem to be some discrepancy then between real world observations performed at two different latitudes by two independent observers and a sentence on a webpage.

At the north or south pole the horizon corresponds to the celestial equator. At the time of the equinoxes the Suns declination is zero degrees so it will circle the horizon as seen from the poles.  For the March equinox it will then climb above the horizon as the Sun moves into the northern half of the celestial equator, reaching a maximum altitude of 23.5 degrees by the time of the June solstice. The opposite happens for the south pole with the Sun reaching 23.5 degrees altitude by the time of the December solstice.

These observations tie in perfectly with the RE view that the Earths polar axis tilt it 23.5 degrees relative to the plane of its orbit. The N/S movement of the Sun relative to the celestial equator is explained by RE theory as the Earths orbit around the Sun. FE theory on the other hand states that the Sun moves in a circle of varying diameter over the Earths surface. It doesn't seem to have a clear explanation for why this variation in diameter happens.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: TomFoolery on March 10, 2019, 06:11:14 AM
Sorry tomfoolery didn't mean to steal your name will try to change it, thought it sounded good. Couldn't remember where I seen it.
No need to change your name! You got a great one. I think you're the 4th Tom I've seen here, so it's all cool.

I agree the sun is a problem for flat earth. The best solutions seem to be to somehow theoretically contort the earth into some duality of dimensions to where it's not actually flat but it's still not considered spherical.
Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: TomFoolery on March 10, 2019, 06:20:37 AM
On the wiki document it says the sun rise at the equinox varies as much as “multiple sun diameters”

Multiple sun diameters? 4 suns would be 2 degrees. It reminds me of the man who sent his four sons to college and only two of them got degrees.

By my calculations, the sun should set 53 degrees north of due west during the longest day of summer in Australia.
The wiki must be wrong. It should be a hundred and six sun diameters.

Title: Re: The sun rising exactly east for all observers on the Earth during the equinoxes
Post by: manicminer on March 10, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
We have been talking about the angle that the Sun makes as it rises and how that angle varies with latitude. For the northern hemisphere this angle points to the south, maximising at 90 degrees for the equator. As you move south of the equator the angle starts to aim to the north.  At the equator the Sun rises vertically throughout the year with the rising point varying from 23.5 degrees north of the east point through to 23.5 degrees south of the east point.

Observers in the northern hemisphere see the Sun swing to the south, passing through the south point (meridian) at or around noon.  Observers in the south see the Sun swing to the north, passing through the north point (meridian) at noon.

Now think of the FE model which has the Sun moving in a circular path centred on the north pole.  It doesn't take too much imagination to figure that in this configuration the Suns motion would not match what is observed. The varying diameter of the circle would lead to the N/S movement either side of the equator to an extent. Where the FE version falls down though, apart from being unable to explain why the Sun should move N/S of the equator in this way, is that if the Sun moved in a circle over a flat surface observers in the southern hemisphere would not see the Sun swing to the north as it rises.  It would instead rise north of the east point on the horizon but it would still swing to the south.