#### rgr331

• 32
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2017, 06:10:26 PM »
There are a number of ways to calculate how far you have travelled that can be cross-referenced against GPS or other such mapping devices.  This is not an impenetrable scientific mystery Tom.

Incorrect. There is no true way to know how fast you are flying through the air without relying on a Round Earth coordinate device.

I bet Mr. Bernoulli can figure out how fast an airplane is flying.

Per Mr. Bernoulli, an airplane flying too slow will fall out of the sky.  I have personally experienced this on many occasions.  It’s called a stall. In my plane, at say 125,000 lbs, with the flaps up, I need to fly 230 mph to stay in flight.  So, a pilot that decides to fly at or just ever so slightly above the minimum flight speed would only need to make wind corrections to determine their ground speed.

#### Tom Haws

• 189
• Not Flat, Round, Ellipsoid, or Geoid. Just Earth.
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2017, 06:42:15 PM »
But wind, wind, wind. Why not just ask an old-timey surveyor how far it is from LA to NY or Lisbon to Shanghai?
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

#### Zanz

• 32
• Flat Earth researcher
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 07:09:07 PM »
Until recently I believed completely in a round earth (like most people) but lots of things made me start to question this.

Rodents on mars

Engineer fixing mars rover.

Tom your answers can be vague (to me).  If the earth is flat then the distance from A to B is a very simple formula (much more simple that on a bulging spherical earth).  If the earth is flat I believe there are maps of the flat earth similar to the one provided below.

Google maps taking pictures from above and making maps is real (I can zoom in on my house on satelite view) whether the ISS is real or not.

As a round earth believer, all those pictures are completely fake. I dont accept pictures and video as evidence because they are too easily photoshopped

They aren't fake. The first photo (rodent) was just a rock. People tend to see familiar objects in rocks, especially on Mars. Apperently people saw a facehugger, a dinosaur skeleton, and an elongated skull on Mars. The second photo is just a misinterpretation of what clearly is a robot arm. If NASA really wanted to hide 'the truth' they would have deleted the images a long time ago. Heck, these photos don't even prove the Earth is Flat.
I still believe its round don't worry.

#### rgr331

• 32
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 07:21:25 PM »
But wind, wind, wind. Why not just ask an old-timey surveyor how far it is from LA to NY or Lisbon to Shanghai?

Because old-timey surveyors use a round earth coordinate system.  A flat earth coordinate system is yet to be developed.

And don’t even start talking about radian coordinates. That would never work on a flat disk earth.

https://www.wyzant.com/resources/lessons/math/trigonometry/unit-circle

Ohh...wait?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 07:23:25 PM by rgr331 »

#### Tom Haws

• 189
• Not Flat, Round, Ellipsoid, or Geoid. Just Earth.
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 08:00:00 PM »
Because old-timey surveyors use a round earth coordinate system.  A flat earth coordinate system is yet to be developed.

And don’t even start talking about radian coordinates. That would never work on a flat disk earth.

https://www.wyzant.com/resources/lessons/math/trigonometry/unit-circle

Ohh...wait?

Well, there's always the notoriously and intentionally inaccurate automobile odometer.
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

#### Boodysaspie

• 30
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2017, 12:39:06 AM »
Flat Earthers argue that there is no true Flat Earth map. If this is the case, then how do airplanes and ships know which direction to go to. They seems to know which direction to go to get to certain place and approximately how long it takes. How can this happen if there is no "true map"?

The coordinate system is correct in that you can get to a location by going to a certain coordinate. The coordinate system assumes that the earth is a globe, however, and the coordinate points are mapped onto a sphere. Distances are calculated under this model, and are not directly experienced with any specific onboard tool.

We can't use distances calculated under the assumption of a globe when making a Flat Earth map. We might as well assume that the earth is a globe if we are using a spherical coordinate system. Those distances must be proven.

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

Per the Southern Hemisphere in the Flat Earth monopole model, the Flat Earth monopole map was not created based on any particular data. It is just a projection of a globe, and has no value in navigation. A true map has yet to be created. The stumbling block is that all listed distances rely upon a Round Earth spherical coordinate system.

Why is relying on a RE spherical co-ordinate system a "stumbling block"?

I'm just trying to imagine how WW2 would have panned out if the Japs had become fed up of trying to guess where Pearl Harbor was, or how tricky it would have been for the USAAF to find mainland Japan in their bombing raids.

US Navy pilots? "Attack the Jap ships at RE co-ordinate x,y. We'll rendezvous at a,b in 50 minutes. Or just turn left at the next wave." I simply cannot imagine how anyone could have operated carriers and planes without very accurate navigation technology, backed up by a paper map in case something technical got damaged.

How many mission records in each category:

- success
- missing in action
- aborted, tech problem
- aborted, couldn't find it

#### TomInAustin

• 1367
• Round Duh
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2017, 04:38:53 PM »
You sure about that or are you just making things up again? The video I linked used straight mathematics for calculating the cruise speed. It didn't reference a table of past designs

You don't think its possible to create a mathematical equation to how an engine equates to a speed from such tables?

Quote
At it's simplest, cruise speed is nothing more than when thrust = drag. Manufacturers know the thrust the engines produce and they know the coefficient of drag of their aircraft.

Again, engines are not lossless mathematical entities and an experiment or experience must have been the basis for those equations.

Quote
It is abundantly clear that you know very little about aviation and I don't fault you for that. What I do take issue with is your baseless assertions. Either start showing some proof or let it go already.

Are you honestly arguing that engineers are designing these engines and coming up with equations with no knowledge of how engines perform and fly in the real world?

LOL, this from the guy that says that engineers don't know how fast a plane flies or how far points are from each other in the real world (real world, that's ironic) it seems the rules are pretty lax.
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

#### OrigamiBoy

• 114
• more like fat earther amiright
##### Re: Where is the map
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2017, 04:52:32 PM »
Until recently I believed completely in a round earth (like most people) but lots of things made me start to question this.

Rodents on mars

Engineer fixing mars rover.

Tom your answers can be vague (to me).  If the earth is flat then the distance from A to B is a very simple formula (much more simple that on a bulging spherical earth).  If the earth is flat I believe there are maps of the flat earth similar to the one provided below.

Google maps taking pictures from above and making maps is real (I can zoom in on my house on satelite view) whether the ISS is real or not.

As a round earth believer, all those pictures are completely fake. I dont accept pictures and video as evidence because they are too easily photoshopped

They aren't fake. The first photo (rodent) was just a rock. People tend to see familiar objects in rocks, especially on Mars. Apperently people saw a facehugger, a dinosaur skeleton, and an elongated skull on Mars. The second photo is just a misinterpretation of what clearly is a robot arm. If NASA really wanted to hide 'the truth' they would have deleted the images a long time ago. Heck, these photos don't even prove the Earth is Flat.

I'm fully aware that they arn't fake, I was just making a point that flat earthers call everything fake, then cherry pick some pictures and call them real.
These are very desperate people - trying SO hard to maintain this one theory that they are prepared to shut their minds to the hundreds of crazy things they have to say to defend it.