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Offline Magicalus

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In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« on: December 06, 2022, 05:32:18 PM »
I was wondering because in RE, the explanation is (somewhat) simple: the Coriolis effect, created by the spinning of the Earth, spins molten metal near the earth's core. Quite a bit of this metal is magnetic, such as iron, and creates one strong field with the magnetic poles roughly near the geographic poles. This theory also explains why the poles flip every so often; the fields are aligned on the axis, but not in a specific direction.

This is a CGP Grey video about runway numbers. At from 8:36 onwards, he explains this model. I can grab more sources about it, but he does a great job explaining the RE version.

But here's my question: I've seen a lot of discussion on the boards about the poles, and using compasses to track position on planes, and the magnetic field bending light, but I've yet to find the FE justification for why the poles exist. The wiki does explain how it lines up with observation, due to ring magnets, but not why it's there. Do y'all have an explanation?

(Title edited for clarity)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:01:16 PM by Magicalus »
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2022, 08:36:33 AM »
I don't really understand your question...  Why do magnets have poles?
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2022, 12:59:34 PM »
I don't really understand your question...  Why do magnets have poles?

Let me rephrase: We know why the earth is a magnet in RE, why is it a magnet in FE?
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2022, 01:27:49 PM »
It's the same process as round Earth I assume except it's a flat disc magnet.   Lava, dynamos, all that stuff I don't understand and have no reason to question.
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2022, 01:58:50 PM »
It's the same process as round Earth I assume except it's a flat disc magnet.   Lava, dynamos, all that stuff I don't understand and have no reason to question.

The problem is that it can't be the same as round Earth, because in RE, it's cause by phenomenon that only apply to RE. Things like the Coriolis effect occurring throughout the entire planet, if at all. The RE explanation isn't applicable with FE, because as far as I can tell the Coriolis effect isn't even a thing in (this chapter of) FE theory.
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2022, 02:05:31 PM »
I don't fully understand how magnetism is generated in this way, but I think the Earth spins the same as in RE anyway so..  Am I off the hook?
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2022, 02:15:19 PM »
I don't fully understand how magnetism is generated in this way, but I think the Earth spins the same as in RE anyway so..  Am I off the hook?
No, because there's another problem at play here: you can't radially magnetize a disc, cylinder, or any other solid circular magnet. It can only be diametric (along the diameter), or axial (through the center). The wiki claims that the earth is, but that's not possible, unless we've all missed a giant hole at the north pole. Neither the mono or bipolar models work because of this.
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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2022, 02:26:49 PM »
Here's a source for that previous post:
https://www.magnet-sdm.com/radially-magnetized-magnet/
This is from a magnet manufacturer.
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2022, 02:29:41 PM »
I think the earth is an Axial Disc Magnet...  Here is a picture...    I can't really speak about a Ring Magnet setup..

« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 07:13:46 AM by Tron »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2022, 02:38:43 PM »
So ... when someone on this disc travels to the North Pole, they're also travelling to the South Pole as well?
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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2022, 02:43:31 PM »
I think the earth is an Axial Disc Magnet...  Here is a picture...    I can't really speak about a Ring Magnet setup..



But in the left model, a compass wouldn't work, because both poles of the compass' magnets would be pulled towards the (geographic) north pole, thus resulting in a compass that points east-west (or vice versa) when you face north. I assume the right one is meant to be the round earth version.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:00:41 PM by Magicalus »
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2022, 03:07:10 PM »
Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side. 

So a compass will only respond to the polarity of a magnet near your location.

And I understand why you think the bar magnet is upside down but it's not.  When we say "magnetic" north or south pole it can mean two different things.  The location  of vertical magnetic field lines that is near the geographic north and south pole OR

The actual polarity of the south pole's location which is north.  Magnetic field lines always exit from the north end of a magnet and enter at the south Pole.  So you see why the bar magnet is flipped on the FE and RE pictures above?  It's unfair how confusing it is but below is a swift article explaining the situation.

https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2013/11/15/why-does-a-magnetic-compass-point-to-the-geographic-north-pole/
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2022, 04:17:29 PM »
Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side. 

So a compass will only respond to the polarity of a magnet near your location.

No. A compass is attracted to both the north and south pole, because it's a magnet. If these poles are both in the same place, then it will be attracted to both equally.

Here's why: take a look at this image.


The compass in the middle is pointing both ways, with the north pole of the compass facing the south pole of the bar magnet. Now, if we rotate the magnet 90 degrees to be vertical, the compass will change direction unpredictably; it might follow the north pole or the south pole. But once the magnet is vertical, the compass is equally attracted to both poles again, so it balances back out to pointing east-west.

There is a much simpler problem though; if you buy an unweighted compass(they weight them for accuracy reason to due with latitude) and hold it vertically in the southern hemisphere, the southern end points down. In your model, we would expect the opposite, because the North pole is upwards. This happens in RE because the magnetic pole is technically through the earth.

(Edited after confirmation of south pole map from Tron, also to add clarity)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 01:47:10 PM by Magicalus »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2022, 06:42:22 PM »
Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side.

So ... when people travel to the South Pole, they go BENEATH the flat earth? On the "other" side?
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2022, 07:05:36 PM »
Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side.

So ... when people travel to the South Pole, they go BENEATH the flat earth? On the "other" side?

This isn't hard...  The opposite poles of a flat or spherical earth are located at the opposite ends of there axis of rotation....  There right beneath one another, seperated by earth of course.
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why do the magnetic poles exist?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2022, 08:57:34 PM »
Okay, so when you go to the south pole, you are not also going to north pole because that is located beneath Earth on the other side.

So ... when people travel to the South Pole, they go BENEATH the flat earth? On the "other" side?

This isn't hard...  The opposite poles of a flat or spherical earth are located at the opposite ends of there axis of rotation....  There right beneath one another, seperated by earth of course.

Yeah, so if someone travels to the North Pole, and stands directly upon it, how would you suggest they then travel to the South Pole?  It's below the North Pole, I get that. On a globe, you simply follow a meridian until you've travelled 180 degrees around the circumference, and find yourself at an antipodal point to where you started.

Where do you go on this flat disc to reach the South Pole?
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2022, 09:12:39 PM »
The picture has what you need...  Just draw a line from  south pole around Earth (meridian or w/e) and to the north pole...
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2022, 10:44:49 PM »
The picture has what you need...  Just draw a line from  south pole around Earth (meridian or w/e) and to the north pole...

Not what I asked.

If you're at the North Pole in your left-hand diagram, by what method do you actually travel to the South Pole.

You've told me that you can, in theory, draw a line from the South Pole to the North Pole, but I didn't ask by what method you draw lines.
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Offline Magicalus

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2022, 12:41:57 AM »
I don't fully understand how magnetism is generated in this way, but I think the Earth spins the same as in RE anyway so..  Am I off the hook?

I'd like to come back to this comment for a sec here: I have never seen anyone else in the FE community posit that a flat Earth is spinning constantly. I'd love to hear more about this. (Seriously, I'm not shitting on you here.) How does this work? Is the sun stationary in this model? Does this model use the sun-spotlight model, the flat Earth in a universe of spheres, or another model? I want to hear about this new branch of FE! (Admittedly, partially so I can critique it.)

As to how this works magnetically, good news! This would indeed work with your axially magnetized model. Bad news is, I still have some hanging critiques about that model. I await your rebuttal of those critiques.
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Offline Tron

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Re: In FE, why is Earth a magnet?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2022, 05:18:24 AM »
Okay, to answer your questions from before - yes, it's a south centered AE map with Antarctica at the center.  Even though they say Anarctica is where the geographic and magnetic south pole is it is not.  The polarity of Antarctica is North with upward moving magnetic field lines as illustrated in the picture above.

To quickly sum up the model here, the sun is stationary.  Earth tilts towards the sun just like the Round Earth model.  But instead of Earth orbitting the sun, it also sits stationary beneath the sun and wobbles once a year to account for seasonal and celestial visual changes.   It's not a spot light sun, it just hovers near Earth like all the other planets but uses the Earths atmosphere to divide the light into night and day.  And our Earthly solar system I think is simply a small Galaxy orbitting the Milky Way. 
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?