*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3279
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #440 on: June 30, 2022, 07:25:15 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

Not really that clear cut:

Some of the state-specific feticide laws considered the fetus to be a person if it is viable, meaning it can survive out of the womb independently.

Some States, the ones you would expect, consider a fetus a "person" at any stage of pregnancy, hence the double homicide. Other States say a fetus is a "person" at viability, not before.
And even some States have no laws on the books regarding this at all.

So no, the blanket statement of "murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder," is not true in all cases.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #441 on: July 01, 2022, 04:54:27 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

Not really that clear cut:

Some of the state-specific feticide laws considered the fetus to be a person if it is viable, meaning it can survive out of the womb independently.

Some States, the ones you would expect, consider a fetus a "person" at any stage of pregnancy, hence the double homicide. Other States say a fetus is a "person" at viability, not before.
And even some States have no laws on the books regarding this at all.

So no, the blanket statement of "murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder," is not true in all cases.
Of course, it isn't true in all cases due to the fact there are people who want to substitute their own reality for actual reality so they can kill a person via abortion without fear of external consequence.

People who do this are no better than John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Dahmer or Ted Bundy.

The reality is that a victim = a person.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3279
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #442 on: July 01, 2022, 05:39:46 PM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

Not really that clear cut:

Some of the state-specific feticide laws considered the fetus to be a person if it is viable, meaning it can survive out of the womb independently.

Some States, the ones you would expect, consider a fetus a "person" at any stage of pregnancy, hence the double homicide. Other States say a fetus is a "person" at viability, not before.
And even some States have no laws on the books regarding this at all.

So no, the blanket statement of "murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder," is not true in all cases.
Of course, it isn't true in all cases due to the fact there are people who want to substitute their own reality for actual reality so they can kill a person via abortion without fear of external consequence.

People who do this are no better than John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Dahmer or Ted Bundy.

The reality is that a victim = a person.

And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #443 on: July 01, 2022, 07:49:20 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3279
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #444 on: July 01, 2022, 08:59:14 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 6653
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #445 on: July 01, 2022, 09:19:38 PM »
What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.

What about blastocytes that don't implant or otherwise become non-viable due to natural reasons?  Is the woman liable the loss of pregnancy for natural reasons if she doesn't even know that she might have been (at least briefly) pregnant?
How many human embryos die between fertilisation and birth under natural conditions? It is widely accepted that natural human embryo mortality is high, particularly during the first weeks after fertilisation, with total prenatal losses of 70% and higher frequently claimed.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #446 on: July 01, 2022, 09:24:51 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #447 on: July 01, 2022, 09:25:51 PM »
What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.

What about blastocytes that don't implant or otherwise become non-viable due to natural reasons?  Is the woman liable the loss of pregnancy for natural reasons if she doesn't even know that she might have been (at least briefly) pregnant?
How many human embryos die between fertilisation and birth under natural conditions? It is widely accepted that natural human embryo mortality is high, particularly during the first weeks after fertilisation, with total prenatal losses of 70% and higher frequently claimed.
The topic is abortion, not miscarriage.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 6653
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #448 on: July 01, 2022, 09:34:54 PM »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3858
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #449 on: July 01, 2022, 10:16:15 PM »
I vote for changing the term "miscarriage" to "died of natural causes." To call it miscarriage is to pretend like they weren't a fully realized human with hopes and dreams and I just think that's sick. We don't say Jane Doe died of miscarriage at the age of 95!  >o<

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3279
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #450 on: July 01, 2022, 10:43:05 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.

Correct. And here's a question about abortion, the topic: Do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3076
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #451 on: July 01, 2022, 11:01:35 PM »
The topic is abortion, not miscarriage.

Do you think those in the state legislatures can reliably tell the difference? Have they all accounted for it in their lawmaking?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #452 on: July 02, 2022, 04:34:32 AM »
The topic is abortion, not miscarriage.
But women are being arrested for miscarriages too.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/national/miscarriages-are-already-criminalized-roe-v-wade/85-7e78facf-b673-4775-8a09-9a45e3a794b2
I find it interesting you provide a source that fails to support your claim in any way whatsoever.

Scratch that, it's hilarious.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #453 on: July 02, 2022, 04:36:35 AM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.

Correct. And here's a question about abortion, the topic: Do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7046
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #454 on: July 02, 2022, 07:41:18 AM »
I vote for changing the term "miscarriage" to "died of natural causes." To call it miscarriage is to pretend like they weren't a fully realized human with hopes and dreams and I just think that's sick. We don't say Jane Doe died of miscarriage at the age of 95!  >o<

>_> not sure if serious....

But we can say she dies of a miscarriage if a miscarriage causes internal hemmroging and she dies of blood loss.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #455 on: July 02, 2022, 11:20:18 AM »
The topic is abortion, not miscarriage.

Do you think those in the state legislatures can reliably tell the difference? Have they all accounted for it in their lawmaking?
Maybe, but I am sure they would be more capable than you.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3858
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #456 on: July 02, 2022, 03:39:59 PM »
>_> not sure if serious....
ffs Dave

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7046
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #457 on: July 02, 2022, 05:08:34 PM »
>_> not sure if serious....
ffs Dave

Yes. For the love of fucks.


But seriously, I haven't been paying enough attention to the thread.  Figured it was not serious but i'm far too jaded by reality.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3279
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #458 on: July 02, 2022, 05:41:42 PM »
And you believe that conception immediately equals personhood?
I refer you back to the topic of abortion.

Abortion takes place at a time after conception.

When does a pregnancy start?

The start of pregnancy is actually the first day of your last menstrual period. This is called the gestational age, or menstrual age. It’s about two weeks ahead of when conception actually occurs. Though it may seem strange, the date of the first day of your last period will be an important date when determining your due date. Your healthcare provider will ask you about this date and will use it to figure out how far along you are in your pregnancy.

What happens right after conception?

Within 24 hours after fertilization, the egg begins rapidly dividing into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days after conception. Then the fertilized egg (now called a blastocyte) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Once there, its next job is to attach to the endometrium. This is called implantation.
Within three weeks, the blastocyte cells ultimately form a little ball, or an embryo. By this time, the first nerve cells have formed.


So do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
Again, the topic is abortion, not conception.

Correct. And here's a question about abortion, the topic: Do you believe a blastocyte is a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.

Of course it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just curious as to where someone like you with your post history stands on the topic at hand.

You were talking a lot about personhood, victims, etc. So a natural clarifying question, which is kinda at the root of the entire debate on the topic, is when is something considered a "person"?

So, from a person with your POV, it's a curiosity to see where you stand. As in is a blastocyte a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

Or is it only a person when the blastocyte becomes an embryo 3 weeks after conception?

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #459 on: July 02, 2022, 08:21:13 PM »
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.

Of course it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just curious as to where someone like you with your post history stands on the topic at hand.

You were talking a lot about personhood, victims, etc. So a natural clarifying question, which is kinda at the root of the entire debate on the topic, is when is something considered a "person"?

So, from a person with your POV, it's a curiosity to see where you stand. As in is a blastocyte a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

Or is it only a person when the blastocyte becomes an embryo 3 weeks after conception?
[/quote]
Now that you finally agree, we can put this to rest.

It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"