Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #420 on: June 30, 2022, 08:15:58 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #421 on: June 30, 2022, 08:43:45 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?

Once you’ve defined that, then comes the sticky wicket around exceptions for the mothers health & rape and incest. And perhaps even viability of the fetus.

The easy out is a person exists at conception and there are no exceptions, all abortions under any circumstances are forbidden. Is that where you are?

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #422 on: June 30, 2022, 09:31:39 AM »
That seems pretty unlikely.
For now it might seem unlikely, but also seems pretty fucking dangerous to assume it will stay that way given the political climate here in the states and how SCOTUS has their eyes on rolling back other rulings that protect contraception, same-sex relationships, and same-sex marriages. We have extremists here and the conservatives are not afraid to pander to them.

I have to say when I saw the recent SCOTUS decision I didn't know about the trigger laws.
I don't know if you watch Last Week Tonight with John Oliver but he did a whole piece on this and mentioned those. I hadn't realised that this ruling would have such an immediate and devastating effect. Things are getting dangerously regressive in the US.

The two extreme positions which really annoy me though are the one from the Republicans which implies they think pro-choice people are just itching to rip full term babies from their mother's womb and strangle them while we all watch and laugh. And the "my body, my choice" argument which implies that it is entirely the mother's prerogative what to do and no consideration should be given to the fetus. In real life no-one actually believes a 12 week old fetus is equivalent to a baby, but after 12 weeks almost all pregnancies will progress to term, I don't think that is completely irrelevant in the discussion. TL;DR This is a complex issue which too many people pretend is a simple black and white one on both sides.

And as much of a shit show as things are over here, it does seem like things are even worse in the US. So...well done, I guess?

Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #423 on: June 30, 2022, 10:36:26 AM »
As we admit that it is a complicated issue it’s also important to remember that the vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability and that the small percentage that are done after, the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons and the tiny percentage of those that aren’t could likely be greatly reduced by access to abortion, contraception and better sex education.
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Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #424 on: June 30, 2022, 11:17:43 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.
This is just so lazy. You're telling me I'm wrong for pasting a literal law that explicitly excludes abortions and pretending like you understand legal terms better than people who write the laws.
Lazy?

The source I posted is a legal source, defining what a victim is.

A victim is a person, period, end of sentence.

That means when an abortion happens, a person is killed.

You have to define first whether a fetus is a ‘person’ or not. Then you can make the claim that when an abortion happens, a person is killed. That’s pretty much the crux of the whole issue; is a fetus a person at 6 weeks gestation? 12 weeks? 24 weeks? At conception?
The law already defines it.

If you murder women who are pregnant, you are guilty of two counts of murder.

Pretty clear cut.

It is only philosophical and intellectual dishonesty that allows for the mental reservation and equivocation evident in your written gymnastics.
Once you’ve defined that, then comes the sticky wicket around exceptions for the mothers health & rape and incest. And perhaps even viability of the fetus.

The easy out is a person exists at conception and there are no exceptions, all abortions under any circumstances are forbidden. Is that where you are?
I understand some people's need to have their bloodlust satisfied, regardless of what others know to be just and moral.

That is where I am.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

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Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #425 on: June 30, 2022, 11:23:28 AM »
As we admit that it is a complicated issue it’s also important to remember that the vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability and that the small percentage that are done after, the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons and the tiny percentage of those that aren’t could likely be greatly reduced by access to abortion, contraception and better sex education.
If what you write is the actual case (all are done for medically necessary reasons) then we wouldn't have all the other BS trotted out, such as rape or incest (less than .05 could EVER possibly be for this reason.

No, a vast majority of abortions performed are simply because the woman and often the man does not want to bear the responsibility of raising a child.

Reproductive rights...HA...what a freaking joke!
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #426 on: June 30, 2022, 11:55:49 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/94.102

Seems a crime victim is a person

You are just flat-out wrong.

So, there you have it.

An unborn fetus is a person.

In Citizens United v. FEC, the Supreme Court asserted that corporations are people. Seems like a lot of things can be a person. Until such time that States out-and-out ban all abortions with no exceptions, all abortions are crimes against victims/persons?

If the mother dies and her death could have been prevented if she aborted, yet a law states that abortion under any circumstances is a crime, is the mother not a person, a victim? Who deserves to live, the Mother or the fetus?
Yeah, if a woman is found to be giving birth to a corporation, you (and I) would find it okay to kill it.

You, probably due to your far-left political view.

Yes, corporations can also be victims of physical harm.

You have no point in bringing this up.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #427 on: June 30, 2022, 12:44:34 PM »
As we admit that it is a complicated issue it’s also important to remember that the vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability and that the small percentage that are done after, the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons and the tiny percentage of those that aren’t could likely be greatly reduced by access to abortion, contraception and better sex education.
If what you write is the actual case (all are done for medically necessary reasons) then we wouldn't have all the other BS trotted out, such as rape or incest (less than .05 could EVER possibly be for this reason.

Breathe. That’s not what I wrote.

Quote
No, a vast majority of abortions performed are simply because the woman and often the man does not want to bear the responsibility of raising a child.

Indeed. And those happen almost entirely in the first trimester. You are making our concordance seem like a disagreement.

Quote
Reproductive rights...HA...what a freaking joke!

Well that’s a non sequitur.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #428 on: June 30, 2022, 12:59:57 PM »
As we admit that it is a complicated issue it’s also important to remember that the vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability and that the small percentage that are done after, the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons and the tiny percentage of those that aren’t could likely be greatly reduced by access to abortion, contraception and better sex education.
If what you write is the actual case (all are done for medically necessary reasons) then we wouldn't have all the other BS trotted out, such as rape or incest (less than .05 could EVER possibly be for this reason.

Breathe. That’s not what I wrote.
A. - I am breathing.

2.  "a vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability" (which is exactly what you wrote) and, " the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons," (also exactly what you wrote.) 
Quote
No, a vast majority of abortions performed are simply because the woman and often the man does not want to bear the responsibility of raising a child.

Indeed. And those happen almost entirely in the first trimester. You are making our concordance seem like a disagreement.
This ought to be interesting, but I'll bite - How does refusing to accept responsibility for the consequence of action somehow qualify for the adjectives "medically necessary"?



Quote
Reproductive rights...HA...what a freaking joke!

Well that’s a non sequitur.
Yeah, the non-sequitur commenced by those labeling the act of murder as a "reproductive right." Typical BS trotted out by bots, and other gaslighting scumbags, found in or emanating from, your typical DARPA-funded server farms, primarily located in Ukraine.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 01:17:03 PM by Action80 »
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #429 on: June 30, 2022, 01:24:14 PM »
A. - I am breathing.

2.  "a vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester before viability" (which is exactly what you wrote) and, " the vast majority are for medically necessary reasons," (also exactly what you wrote.) 
Agreed, but you left out exactly what I wrote between those, and that makes all the difference in the world.  So if you are calm and breathing why did this mistake happen?

Quote
This ought to be interesting, but I'll bite - How does refusing to accept responsibility for the consequence of action somehow qualify for the adjectives "medically necessary"?

It doesn't ??? See above where you are either misunderstanding of misrepresenting what I've written.


Quote
Yeah, the non-sequitur commenced by those labeling the act of murder as a "reproductive right." Typical BS trotted out by bots, and other gaslighting scumbags, found in or emanating from, your typical DARPA-funded server farms, primarily located in Ukraine.

Even more non-sequiturs.  This is getting really interesting.  More please.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #430 on: June 30, 2022, 01:49:05 PM »
Imagine using the adjectives "medically necessary," when describing the act of murder.

Yet, here, directly above this post, Rama does exactly just that.

Remarkable.

It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #431 on: June 30, 2022, 01:52:43 PM »
Imagine using the adjectives "medically necessary," when describing the act of murder.

Yet, here, directly above this post, Rama does exactly just that.

Remarkable.

I see, your attempt to misrepresent what I wrote failed comepletely so now you are pivoting.  If you aren't interested in having an honest conversation, you should just avoid me instead of looking lying to try and make me look bad.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #432 on: June 30, 2022, 02:50:09 PM »
Imagine using the adjectives "medically necessary," when describing the act of murder.

Yet, here, directly above this post, Rama does exactly just that.

Remarkable.

I see, your attempt to misrepresent what I wrote failed comepletely so now you are pivoting.  If you aren't interested in having an honest conversation, you should just avoid me instead of looking lying to try and make me look bad.
Not at all. I have remained completely consistent and on target.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my characterization of your post.

I do not consider you to be an expert on others committing acts of misrepresentation.

But take heart, as you are an expert at such acts, having had so much practice.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 09:32:26 PM by Action80 »
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #433 on: June 30, 2022, 02:54:01 PM »
If you aren't interested in having an honest conversation, you should just avoid me instead of looking lying to try and make me look bad.
He never is. We bypassed homicide being the number one cause of death to pregnant women and are back on first trimester abortion is murder that apparently matters more than the woman. There's no point.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #434 on: June 30, 2022, 03:25:17 PM »
If you aren't interested in having an honest conversation, you should just avoid me instead of looking lying to try and make me look bad.
He never is. We bypassed homicide being the number one cause of death to pregnant women and are back on first trimester abortion is murder that apparently matters more than the woman. There's no point.

True enough.  He is always 100% more cordial after returning from his bans and I get duped.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #435 on: June 30, 2022, 03:34:00 PM »
If you aren't interested in having an honest conversation, you should just avoid me instead of looking lying to try and make me look bad.
He never is. We bypassed homicide being the number one cause of death to pregnant women
No, we didn't.

I pointed out an additional charge of homicide is also leveled, something you very much wanted to keep out of the discussion as it renders your reasoning in support of abortion to actually be reasoning in support of wanton murder.
and are back on first trimester abortion is murder that apparently matters more than the woman. There's no point.
No one stated any murder of any one person matters more than the murder of any other person except for abortion advocates like you.

I do not want to see anyone murdered except bad actors.

A fetus cannot be a bad actor.

People who are irresponsible, engage in coitus without exercising proper birth control, all while thinking "Gee, I hope our act does not result in a pregnancy..." are actually the bad actors.

In addition, it would be good to see the equivocation so evident in posts like yours meet its justified demise.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 03:35:36 PM by Action80 »
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #436 on: June 30, 2022, 03:36:59 PM »
True enough.  He is always 100% more cordial
I consider it cordial to point out obvious crap so others do not step into it.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #437 on: June 30, 2022, 04:44:28 PM »
No, we didn't.

I pointed out an additional charge of homicide is also leveled, something you very much wanted to keep out of the discussion as it renders your reasoning in support of abortion to actually be reasoning in support of wanton murder.
I did not care if it was brought into the discussion or not. The law explicitly excludes abortion and as I said before, consent makes all the difference. This is not my opinion, it was literally written into law. If someone decided to violently cut off a woman's breasts that would be a crime. If a woman and her doctor decide on a mastectomy to treat cancer that would not be a crime.

Fetal homicide hinges on the violent act against a pregnant woman. Not a medical decision the woman makes for herself.
As pointed out, "person" in legal terms means whatever fuck all the laws want it to mean. It does not mean a naturalized person with rights. If you have problems with that then, well just wait longer and I'm sure it will all be pushed aside when we become a christian taliban state.

I don't know why I bother. You say obvious troll shit like
A. - I am breathing.

2. 
So just go back to ranting and telling me my copy/pasta is wrong.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #438 on: June 30, 2022, 05:11:00 PM »
True enough.  He is always 100% more cordial
I consider it cordial to point out obvious crap so others do not step into it.

So for the benefit of future readers I will point out that I never wrote that all first trimester abortions are medically necessary. Lackey is either too stupid or too dishonest to take that on. What I wrote was the following, in bullet point form, so the stupid can better understand and the dishonest can not twist:
• Approx. 90% of abortions are first trimester
• Of the remaining abortions, taking place after the first trimester, the vast majority are medically necessary
• Of the minuscule percentage of abortions that are after the first trimester and are elective, a bunch of them could be avoided by improving access to abortion, contraception and improving reproductive health education. Indeed, females under 18 are over represented in this last category because of access and education.

Baked in to this is that I don’t think a fetus that is not viable should be considered a person. If you want to accuse me or some moral failing for that, go ahead, better yet, make a good argument in good faith to change my mind or plant a seed.

Now, inb4 Total Lackey misrepresents me again and accuses me of spearheading DARPA’s great replacement on behalf of Ukraine or some dumb shit.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #439 on: June 30, 2022, 05:52:55 PM »
......Things are getting dangerously regressive in the US.

......

And as much of a shit show as things are over here, it does seem like things are even worse in the US. So...well done, I guess?

This is just getting started.  Clarence Thomas has had a giant boner ever since the Trump nominations.  He's been waiting for this moment to progress the U.S. back 50 years from his first day on the bench.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

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