21

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 20, 2020, 07:36:17 PM »

There might be some curving in that photos. The evidence is the text, however, that people regularly see this themselves.

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

You keep mentioning the evidence is the text. The evidence is that they "saw it for themselves".

According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

Therefore, the fact that the photograph is skewed from reality is a MAJOR conflict and discrediting factor. It probably explains why nobody but a single librarian responded to his inquiries.

22

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 20, 2020, 07:09:05 PM »

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

First off, please don't make assumptions about what I have and have not read - I read the content.

Secondly, since when do you take someone's word as evidence of anything other than words? Many have told you they demonstrated the string experiment and found that the sun does in fact point to the moon - yet you have routinely dismissed this as evidence, why do you now believe (or expect someone else to believe) someone's word in this case?

Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements would show this warping.

Have you ever taken a panoramic photo? They absolutely DO change straight lines into curves, that's how it can grab 180 degrees and shrink it into 50.

Look closely at that picture, you will see that the fence and (more prevalently), the power lines do curve. Just hold a ruler or any straight edge up to the photograph. Seriously, give it a try on the power line. There is no easier way to argue this - and you won't convince anybody that it is straight.

Edit:

Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.

23

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 20, 2020, 06:02:05 PM »

OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):



This is an attempt to prove that the sun can't possibly be pointing at the moon.

My first thought when looking at this picture, was very similar to the wiki's quoted text saying

I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Edit:

TBH, I would suggest removing it from the wiki because it undermines the point you are trying to make because the photo is skewed since it is panoramic - and it is probably obvious to most who view it that it is in fact a panoramic photo.

24

Flat Earth Investigations / How does FET explain comets?

« on: July 20, 2020, 05:21:13 PM »

Last week, the comet "Neowise" was visible from my location. I could see it each night in the western sky.

One observation I made was that its position relative to mine changed with the passing of time - it appeared to drop on the horizon, as would be expected, as the earth rotated away from it toward the east.

Each night as the sun set, it would then become visible once again in the same portion of the sky.

So, let's suppose the sun and moon rotate in a circular motion over the earth as it does according to FET, and let's assume the earth is not rotating as it does in RET.

How then, is it possible for the comet's location to appear to drop on the horizon as if it were "setting" and then appear back in its original location the next day? If the earth isn't rotating away from the comet and the comet is just moving away from us, it's almost like the comet is teleporting back to it's original location in the sky each night, yet it is clear that it fades each night, as though it is moving away from us, yet it's location gets reset?

If you assume FET, then it is apparent that this comet is not behaving in a way that makes any sense whatsoever. If you assume RET, the comet is moving in a way that is consistent.

So, how does FET explain the inconsistent behavior of the comet observed in this case?

25

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 12, 2020, 08:22:29 PM »

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Take a small half-colored ball and see how easy it is to change phase in relation to a point in the distance with small movements.

This is another case of: "I used a highly variable close range perspective effect and got something to match. Proofz!!!"

It may not be definitive proof, but it IS proof that it is POSSIBLE that the sun is pointing at the moon just as RET says it should.

26

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 12, 2020, 06:06:08 PM »

You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps. You are making a perspective effect with the laser pointer by holding it in a special way and position from your eye so that the laser pointer's body seems to point upwards. But there are multiple ways to hold that laser pointer.

If you are standing in line with a row of lamp posts, for example, the line of lamps points straight upwards:



There are multiple way to angle the laser pointer to match that:



In the bottom position we have your method of specifically trying to make a perspective effect with the laser pointer body.

This is the problem we saw before, there is no way to know which angle is correct. Both positions can seem to match the scene. Only by using outside and pre-determined knowledge of the lamp configuration (or by using perspective clues), do we know which position matches the scene.

Since you can admit and believe that the laser pointer can be positioned parallel AND match the upward angle of the lamps, why is it so hard to believe this same effect is happening with the moon?

27

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 12, 2020, 01:15:39 AM »

Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?

I am suggesting that it is possible to position the laser pointer so that it will point toward the sun and be lined up perpendicular to the moons tilted shadow.

28

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: July 11, 2020, 04:52:16 PM »

They gon' take our guns away!

Calm down Tom, you'll still be able to buy your AKs without any fuss at a gun show.

Brits mostly cannot believe the attitude of most Americans to guns. Of course you shouldn’t be able to buy stuff like this online.
I remember Obama lamenting the fact that you can’t even have a debate about this sort of thing. The merest hint that just maybe there should be some control over guns and the response is a hysterical THEY’RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR GUNS!!!1!!1!

I mean, personally I think they probably should take away your guns. So many incidents show you can’t be trusted with them. But that’s never going to fly. But surely some level of sensible debate on the issue without the hysterical response above.

I wholehearted believe in my right to bear arms. However, I am embarrassed by some Americans who tout their guns around and clearly do not know how to wield one.

Like this couple:

https://www.kmov.com/news/st-louis-couple-seen-pointing-guns-at-protestors/article_afbb1b2c-b98e-11ea-ba7e-b3452007bfc8.html

This is an example of someone who should not be allowed to own or possess a gun.

29

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: July 11, 2020, 03:54:04 PM »

I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

I think that idea could be a slippery slope. Who’s going to make that determination and what if they get it wrong?

Police should respond if they are called.

However if someone has made a spurious call, like some we’ve seen in the news lately, there should be strict penalties for it.

Also, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread that police need to be better trained all around. This requires more funds, and/or redistribution of funds (not defunding) - supporting programs meant for education on different cultures, bias awareness, and deescalation tactics.

30

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 10, 2020, 10:48:37 PM »

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

That would depend.

You, the Moon and the Sun form three points of a triangle. A triangle is a planar figure.

If you look at the Moon, or the Sun, you are looking along this plane of the triangle. You're not looking above or below it.

If, while looking at the Moon, you hold string, rod, or laser point up such that it is perpendicular to the Moon terminator, then any of those will be in alignment with the side of the triangle, as viewed from your position behind the string, rod or laser line.

In order for your laser to point at the Sun, you need to hold it broadly parallel to the line of the triangle connecting Moon and Sun in order for it to point at the Sun. You could align it to miss the Sun, and it would still look as though it were perpendicular to the terminator from your viewpoint.

This is a good explanation of what I am trying (and miserably failing) to say.

Tom, the laser pointer has inspired me as well, so let me attempt to explain it this way:

If you hold the laser pointer out in front of you from a standing position, basically vertical to the ground and parallel to your body, you can line it up perpendicularly to the moons shadow and the laser beam will shoot up into the void of space.

If you angle the laser pointer towards yourself (on the plane of the triangle Tumeni mentioned), and point it up over your head (you might have to lay on the ground and hold the pointer parallel to the ground), you can still line it up to be perpendicular to the moons shadow and it will now point toward the horizon and sun.

This was also demonstrated by your cone example in which you can change the angle on one plane, and still be perpendicular on another plane.

Furthermore, if you can imagine a scenario where this is possible, you can imagine it is POSSIBLE that the sun's light is pointing along that path towards the moon.

31

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 10, 2020, 10:14:17 PM »

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

Well, you seem to be admitting that it is possible to get the string to point upwards like in my last diagram.

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

The short answer is it would shoot up into the sky. The reason for this is tied to your cone example. I would like some time to figure out a way to explain what is I’m trying to say so I will leave it at this for now.

32

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 10, 2020, 09:25:50 PM »

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

33

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 10, 2020, 09:12:02 PM »

Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.

The point is you hold the string taut so you don't create an arc with the string, it should be held so it's a straight line.
And yeah, if you only stretch the string out a little way then it probably would look like it isn't going to point at the sun.
The entire point of the experiment is you continue that line and have enough string that it stretches across the sky. Do that and you'll see it does in fact hit the sun. That's the demonstration that the apparent disparity is simply an optical illusion.

I am not explaining myself very well, and likely won't be able to without a visual.

The arc that I'm referring to occurs only from the cross plane, which is outside the observers perspective, and only because we are limited to the length of string we can use for an observation. Sorry to muddle up this conversation - I'm in agreement that it does point to the sun. Just trying to figure out how to explain it definitively to someone with an argument such as Tom's cone example.

No matter how many times I try to re-write my explanation it isn't coming out right, so I'm going to leave it for now....

34

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes

« on: July 10, 2020, 08:39:13 PM »

Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.

35

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: July 10, 2020, 03:50:11 PM »

This thread is also devolving. Stop with the gigantic quote pyramids and absurd pedantry. Stick to the topic so I don't have to flex my authority like American police do.

I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

People who believe the police to be out of control are observing infringements on society based on opinions of normalcy. Someone can be deemed "suspicious" because they have defied social norms. Is this a cause for police action?

"It isn't 'normal' to be dancing in the street, there must be something devious is happening, so I'm calling the police!"

Far to often peoples misguided sense of normalcy steers them in the direction of discrimination and social profiling. On the other hand, things that are "normal" help us to make quick decisions - like whether or not to shoot someone in the back after they steel your taser. The officer was likely reacting on a sense of "this isn't normal", therefore fear kicks in, the situation escalates, and before you know it someone ends up dead.

Perhaps the solution to "out of control police" is to deconstruct the idea of "normal". Allow people to not be so reactive on subconscious ques, and better equipped to see where the real threats are.

Edit:

I agree the quote pyramids are getting out of control.

36

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: July 10, 2020, 03:19:17 PM »

Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.

I think this calls to question the definition of "normal".

It seems that your definition of normal is that normal is broadly shared by all, for all, with regards to any and all 'norms'. If so, I would ask you to demonstrate this.

I'm afraid you might be falling victim to ethnocentrism in your claim of normalcy.

What is normal for someone in the USA to do, might not be normal for someone in Asia to do - for instance - and vice versa. Before you go calling me racist again, take the example of chopsticks. It is normal for people to use chopsticks in Asian cultures much more so than it is for someone like myself to use chopsticks when I eat.

Similarly, it is normal for Indian cuisine to use curry. It is not normal for my diet to include curry.

I can give you more examples if it would be helpful.

37

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: July 10, 2020, 02:00:15 PM »

Why would you detain someone for dancing?

To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal,

Why should we do that?

It is abnormal to be dancing in the street.

You cannot possibly claim that is a normal activity.

It seems apparent, after reading other's replies, that some people consider it normal activity, and some do not - this is understandable since we live in different parts of the country/world and have grown up with varying cultures.

Where I am from, dancing in the street for fun would be completely normal.

There's also a big difference between dancing in a non-busy residential street in your own neighborhood, and dancing down Broadway in New York City.

...and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".

Police are frequently called to residences and other places to determine exactly that.

"Find out what is going on."

Do you want police to act on a situation without finding out what is going on?

OK - I get it, sure if a police officer is called to investigate suspicious activity, the officer must go and that is their job. The problem I have with this is first off, what is considered suspicious activity looks a lot like racial profiling in this case. And this isn't the officers fault initially, and I think more attention should be focused on why someone thought enough to call the police in the first place.

The second problem I have is that the officer escalated the situation far beyond what is reasonable for someone minding their own business in their own neighborhood.

I get emotional over this because I can see myself in this situation. I am someone who would dance in the street - you can say I'm weird for it, but it doesn't give the police any rights to detain me for it - matter of fact, if I was grabbed by officers the way this man was, I'd be just as livid. Only I'd probably be worse because I have 'white privilege' and wouldn't fear for my life.

If I were blocking traffic or putting myself or others in danger, well that's another story altogether, and that isn't the case here.

The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.

Reasonable suspicion something might be amiss is certainly cause for an investigation and for the rest of the follow up, you can refer above to the rest of my reply.

I still fail to see what the reasonable suspicion is in this case??? I think this is at the forefront of the problem, with police overstepping their authority and use of "reasonable suspicion".

What did the police officer 'reasonably suspect' the man for? Wasn't it the person calling the police who suspected the man in the first place. Once the police got there, how did they go from "why are you dancing in the street?" to "you are a threat to <something>, and we're going to arrest you."?

Here's an i.e. -

How often does it happen that a case has to be legally dismissed because evidence was obtained unlawfully? I don't know the answer to this, but I'll guarantee it's happened more than once.

Relevance?

If someone's rights are violated while obtaining evidence of a crime, if they are detained unlawfully for instance, the judge may very well throw out the evidence.

Relevance?

OK - so I'm stretching a bit on this, I'll give you that.

Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.

No, it isn't.

Dancing in the street is not a normal activity performed by anyone and everyone.

The antonym of normal is abnormal.

I am correct.

Period.

End of argument.

You would be correct that dancing in the street is not normal for EVERYONE, but to say it isn't normal for ANYONE is not reality.

38

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: July 10, 2020, 01:56:41 AM »

Why would you detain someone for dancing?

To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal, and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".

That is not only 'un-american', that is a violation of civil rights. Also have a look at the 4th amendment - refresh yourself of your own civil liberties, it might be good for you.

The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.

Here's an i.e. -

How often does it happen that a case has to be legally dismissed because evidence was obtained unlawfully? I don't know the answer to this, but I'll guarantee it's happened more than once.

If someone's rights are violated while obtaining evidence of a crime, if they are detained unlawfully for instance, the judge may very well throw out the evidence.


Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.

39

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: July 09, 2020, 02:24:08 AM »

People forget. Just like they forgot how Trump earlier this year did everything he could to downplay and blow off the coronavirus outbreak, leading to his approval ratings bizarrely going up once he started going through the motions of taking it seriously. I don't know if he'll end up taking votes away from Biden, but anyone who's dumb enough to vote for Kanye fucking West is presumably going to have completely forgotten how supportive he was of Trump.

All of The Donald's radicalized rednecks completely forgot how supportive he was of their hated Lizard Hillary.

Of course, people in general have forgotten all about the pussy grabbin, multiple bankruptcies, his promise to release his tax returns, dissing war vets, praising dictators, etc, etc..

When you spew as much garbage as this man does, the mental queue for bullshit can only store so many queries. So yes, people forget. They also forget because most people do not have the mental schemas that would allow them to categorize this amount of .... what’s even the right word for it? ....

40

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: July 08, 2020, 08:37:31 PM »

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/donald-trump-mary-niece-book-eight-most-shocking-claims

Juicy stuff.

The stuff about his parents checks out.
He is clearly mentally ill with serious personality disorders. The way he acts when anyone questions, rejects or criticises him isn’t normal.

I have been saying this all along... he has narcissistic personality disorder with sociopathic tendencies.