Global Positioning System
« on: July 27, 2018, 03:43:31 PM »
The GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) can pinpoint the location of your car (with it's coordinates) within a couple of metres. Wherever you are in the world.

Are proponents of the flat earth theory able to reliably use or indeed believe this system is truthfully reporting their position on the earth?

If you are a flat earth proponent, I'd like to respectfully ask:

1) Do you think this system is simply a fabrication/elaborate ploy engineered by the US and various collaborative governments to dupe people into believing in a spherical earth model?
2) Do you believe the Chinese Beidou GPS satellite based navigation system is also a fabrication/elaborate ploy to dupe the chinese into believing in a spherical earth model?
3) Anyone, anywhere in the world can lie under the stars, and watch various satellites cross the sky at predicable times and in predictable ways. Are these visible objects placed there by governments as a distraction to further make people believe in a spherical earth model?

4) In consideration of the above questions, and if, indeed, the earth if flat, why would any person, body, government or other, try to hard to maintain the theory of a spherical earth and for what purpose would they do this?

Thank you for your replies.
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

pj1

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 03:54:41 PM »

4) In consideration of the above questions, and if, indeed, the earth if flat, why would any person, body, government or other, try to hard to maintain the theory of a spherical earth and for what purpose would they do this?


With regards to Q4, you may want to check out https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy.

I'm not a FE'er, so I'll defer to others on Qs 1-3.

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 06:47:03 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 06:48:34 PM by Round Eyes »
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 06:55:20 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"

How high are these planes? How fast do they move? It seems like these are testable questions. If the OP's statement, "Anyone, anywhere in the world can lie under the stars, and watch various satellites cross the sky at predicable times and in predictable ways." is true, then we should be able to objectively test this stuff.

1) Can we see satellites cross the sky?
2) How fast do they move in angular speed?
3) Make a chart of ground-speed vs height to match those angular speeds... what does that tell us?

It doesn't seem all that hard to prove this one way or the other.

Offline edby

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Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 09:07:14 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
So you accept the accuracy of GPS?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 09:17:26 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"

You cannot have flights with pinpoint accuracy 100% of the time.

... but they don't say they're used for "providing a full GPS service", do they?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 09:32:30 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 10:18:40 AM »
Glad you agree. When I explained in other topic I'm a flat earther pilot and GPS is approved as primary means of navigation and planes land in between mountains night and day, in fact last year we had 4,000,000,000 commercial passengers with zero deaths. Another flat earther was not impressed and did not believe what I said basically.

This is unsurprising, since if you accept that GPS works and as a pilot, you will have studied how it works, and therefore the sorts of errors all pilots need to be aware of:
I'm also a pilot and you would know that pilots in training initially navigate with maps and compasses and that the effect of weather can knock you off course considerably and quickly. Now consider the more usual situation of following a GPS (GNSS) signal which is linked to the autopilot. There are multiple factors which affect the accuracy of GNSS:

1) The ephemeris data (the actual "beamed" position of the satellite) can be up to 2 hours old meaning the the radio transmissions are not coming from where the satellite "says" it is. (Positional errors up to 3m)
2) Clock drift - satellite clock drift errors muck up the calculations of the receiver (can cause positional errors up to 3m)
3) Receiver interference (from other broadcasting stations) - errors of 1.5m
4) Ionospheric errors - (similar to light bending through water, water vapour in the ionosphere bends the radio signals). This can cause errors up to 10m

There are more but the point is, not only is GPS not 100% accurate (although agreed it is accurate enough to fly from one airport to another without too many problems), these satellites must be orbiting for the system to work.

4) ...why would any person, body, government or other, try to hard to maintain the theory of a spherical earth and for what purpose would they do this?
Not just any person. I think you underestimate the size of the conspirary.

I did say "person, body, government or other" - but of more interest would be the other part of the question "for what purpose would they do this"? Do you have a theory as to why this is the case?

How high are these planes? How fast do they move? It seems like these are testable questions.
Everyone can find out position of gps planes now because it is sent out every gps radio signal. Called the "Almanac".

Simple copy of current Almanac here.

How? Round Earth says satellites, Flat Earth says I don't know. But there are 31 sources in total.

From the accuracy (one can derive an extremely accurate timebase from just a few gps signals alone, to precision of 15nanoseconds from UTC easily), it follows that the published positions of the sources themselves must be extremely accurate AND be very predictable

"I don't know" is unacceptable from a pilot who uses the GPS system. You cannot just cherry pick the bits of science that work for you; this is analogous to someone disputing aerodynamics but still flies by following those same rules - without at least having a cogent alternate theory -which you admit you don't. It's also interesting to note that, as a pilot who presumably does accept the mathematics which takes his plane up into the air and back down again, that the very same mathematics also proves a spherical earth. Again - you cannot cherry pick. It's not surprising your FE colleague got a little suprised by your acceptance of the GPS system. I would too if I believed in a FE.

You simply cannot pick and choose the mathematics that you agree with and that with which you don't.



very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"


I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you able to offer an answer to the questions of my OP?
Do you believe that the GPS system exists and works as we are told? And do you use it, say, in your car?

(Also FYI, GPS is operated by the US Air Force strategic command. It is not run by NASA).
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 11:30:36 AM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 12:02:01 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"


I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you able to offer an answer to the questions of my OP?
Do you believe that the GPS system exists and works as we are told? And do you use it, sa
y, in your car?
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2018, 02:12:37 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:14:56 PM by inquisitive »

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2018, 07:00:27 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"


I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you able to offer an answer to the questions of my OP?
Do you believe that the GPS system exists and works as we are told? And do you use it, sa
y, in your car?

Of course it works, but I disagree on the source of the signal
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2018, 07:02:36 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.

It was very obvious I was replying to the design of the aircraft, but the GPS system, but I think you know that.  I believe all agencies and countries are involved in this plot, same as all space travel, moon, Mars, etc
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2018, 08:22:36 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.

It was very obvious I was replying to the design of the aircraft, but the GPS system, but I think you know that.  I believe all agencies and countries are involved in this plot, same as all space travel, moon, Mars, etc
Why should GPS be a plot? Receivers give the location of the transmitters.

Do you understand satellite TV? Geosynchronous orbits.

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2018, 10:07:36 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.

It was very obvious I was replying to the design of the aircraft, but the GPS system, but I think you know that.  I believe all agencies and countries are involved in this plot, same as all space travel, moon, Mars, etc
Why should GPS be a plot? Receivers give the location of the transmitters.

Do you understand satellite TV? Geosynchronous orbits.

As in my other posts elsewhere, I am not talking "stationary" satellites.  Im only referring to gps/iridium orbiting type satellites.

And please don't try and belittle people with stupid posts asking if I understand satellite TV.
Quote from: SiDawg
Planes fall out of the sky all the time

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 10:18:38 PM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.

It was very obvious I was replying to the design of the aircraft, but the GPS system, but I think you know that.  I believe all agencies and countries are involved in this plot, same as all space travel, moon, Mars, etc
Why should GPS be a plot? Receivers give the location of the transmitters.

Do you understand satellite TV? Geosynchronous orbits.

As in my other posts elsewhere, I am not talking "stationary" satellites.  Im only referring to gps/iridium orbiting type satellites.

And please don't try and belittle people with stupid posts asking if I understand satellite TV.
The operation of GPS systems is well documented, proven and understood. 

If you think there is some other way then provide some evidence. It must be a conspiracy is not evidence, just your thoughts.

Treep Ravisarras

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 05:14:47 AM »
Of course it works, but I disagree on the source of the signal
Do you agree though that from the accuracy of it, it follows that the published positions of the sources themselves must be extremely accurate AND be very predictable?

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 07:15:40 AM »
very high altitude, long range planes (possibly solar powered). 

airplane flights all around the world are already very consistent.  remove the need for cargo, passengers, pilots, etc and you can have flights with pinpoint accuracy.  nasa even has photos of its high altitude planes on there website and even say they are used for "testing GPS equipment"
Do you have details of the design and operation?

Yes, of course, all design plans and calcs are readily available on the internet, you know how open source these guys are... Geez, come on.
Have you looked at gps.gov? Anything you have a problem with?  Calculations have to be open source for receiver designers.  There must be Chinese and Russian aircraft flying over the US if you are correct.

It was very obvious I was replying to the design of the aircraft, but the GPS system, but I think you know that.  I believe all agencies and countries are involved in this plot, same as all space travel, moon, Mars, etc
Why should GPS be a plot? Receivers give the location of the transmitters.

Do you understand satellite TV? Geosynchronous orbits.

As in my other posts elsewhere, I am not talking "stationary" satellites.  Im only referring to gps/iridium orbiting type satellites.

And please don't try and belittle people with stupid posts asking if I understand satellite TV.
The operation of GPS systems is well documented, proven and understood. 

If you think there is some other way then provide some evidence. It must be a conspiracy is not evidence, just your thoughts.

In addition to this valid question, returning to the OP, why would governments/luminati/whoever around the world continue with this conspiracy? In whose interest is it? Clearly you believe the round earth is a conspiracy so what is your opinion as to why this is happening and what do the creators of this conspiracy gain from it?
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

pj1

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2018, 08:54:39 AM »
In addition to this valid question, returning to the OP, why would governments/luminati/whoever around the world continue with this conspiracy? In whose interest is it? Clearly you believe the round earth is a conspiracy so what is your opinion as to why this is happening and what do the creators of this conspiracy gain from it?

It is worth questioning the why... because if a GPS-like service (but not reliant on orbiting satellites) was in use, why convince the wider public that satellites are needed to make it function?  Why not simply describe this technology as is? The only rationale could be that this technology proves the earth to be flat so it had to be hidden behind a technology using a system reliant on a round-earth. 

Seems unlikely to me, but I suppose that's the nature of conspiracies.

Re: Global Positioning System
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2018, 03:28:20 PM »
In addition to this valid question, returning to the OP, why would governments/luminati/whoever around the world continue with this conspiracy? In whose interest is it? Clearly you believe the round earth is a conspiracy so what is your opinion as to why this is happening and what do the creators of this conspiracy gain from it?

It is worth questioning the why... because if a GPS-like service (but not reliant on orbiting satellites) was in use, why convince the wider public that satellites are needed to make it function?  Why not simply describe this technology as is? The only rationale could be that this technology proves the earth to be flat so it had to be hidden behind a technology using a system reliant on a round-earth. 

Seems unlikely to me, but I suppose that's the nature of conspiracies.

Sound logic. I can't see why the countries that operate GNSS (US, Russia, China), if indeed they don't use orbiting satellites, why don't just say they are using lower altitude flying machines "possible solar powered" as ROUND EYES hypothesises.

I'm very interested in why FET believers think that the flat earth is being hidden behind the supposed myth of the RE?
It's a really important question in the debate because as much as we can argue about science and maths, in any conspiracy on this scale, there surely needs to be a self-serving motive?

So who would benefit from masking a flat earth from mainsteam science and society and why would they do it?

THanks for any replies.
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?