Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2021, 02:12:28 PM »
on a side note, i'm really enjoying how i spent literally 20 years hearing nothing but shrieking from conservatives like "muslims are so awful and don't respect human rights and nancy pelosi wants sharia law in america!!!!!!!1111", and now you dummies can't stop talking about how awesome the taliban is and omg sharia law is great because women are sluts who need to be put in their places.

i wish y'all would pick one side of literally any issue and stick to it for more than a day.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2021, 02:45:51 PM »
on a side note, i'm really enjoying how i spent literally 20 years hearing nothing but shrieking from conservatives like "muslims are so awful and don't respect human rights and nancy pelosi wants sharia law in america!!!!!!!1111", and now you dummies can't stop talking about how awesome the taliban is and omg sharia law is great because women are sluts who need to be put in their places.

i wish y'all would pick one side of literally any issue and stick to it for more than a day.

They have a side: Anti-Liberal.  (Despite liberal not meaning Democrat.)
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Offline Action80

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #102 on: August 25, 2021, 02:50:18 PM »
how i spent literally 20 years =/= stick to it for more than a day.
One could state for certain you have massive problems finding your way across the street based on your demonstrable issues with time keeping.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2021, 03:32:51 PM »
how i spent literally 20 years =/= stick to it for more than a day.
One could state for certain you have massive problems finding your way across the street based on your demonstrable issues with time keeping.

Yeah, its only been 19 years, 11 months and 1 week since 9/11.  Get owned, libs!
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2021, 04:29:03 PM »
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?


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Online Rama Set

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:15 PM »
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?


There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.
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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2021, 04:54:28 PM »
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?


Weirdly, he's basically right about this. But I'd suggest you're fooling yourself if you think this would have been any less of a balls up had it happened under Trump.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2021, 04:58:23 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set
There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.

What in the world are you talking about? The withdrawal was a complete blunder. They left Americans in Afghanistan and left billion of dollars worth of weapons. This could have been avoided.

Washington Post
Opinion: Biden must rescue thousands of U.S. citizens trapped in Afghanistan

USA Today
Trapped in Kabul: Why has America left its citizens in Afghanistan to fend for themselves?

CNN
Rifles, Humvees and millions of rounds of ammo: Taliban celebrate their new American arsenal

The Hill
Billions in US weaponry seized by Taliban

New York Post
Taliban has billions in US weapons, including Black Hawks and up to 600K rifles
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 05:03:23 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2021, 05:12:43 PM »
Tom's list of opinion pieces is right.
We should ensure that the Taliban never gets our stuff.  Lets level the country with nukes.
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Online Rama Set

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2021, 05:24:23 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set
There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.

What in the world are you talking about?

Reality. You?

 
Quote
The withdrawal was a complete blunder. They left Americans in Afghanistan

Evacuation is ongoing. Why are you using the past tense?

Quote
and left billion of dollars worth of weapons.

With the Afghan military, to, you know, fight the Taliban.

Quote
This could have been avoided.

I look forward to the specifics of your plan.

I’ve never said it went well, but I’ve never seen anyone provide alternatives other than 20/20 hindsight, which is pretty lazy. You get extra points for using “liberal media sources” which you habitually decry as untrustworthy.

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2021, 06:22:49 PM »
No other way?

hey i'm just going with what turnip said. he was quite clear that this was his plan and his timetable. biden tried to stop all this from happening, but he couldn't.
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Offline Action80

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2021, 06:58:03 PM »
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2021, 07:09:48 PM »
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.

Classic “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2021, 08:16:43 PM »
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.

Well, at least you realize that Trump wasn't conservative either.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2021, 08:22:21 PM »
I'm an international security buff, so this may be a little wonky, but I'll try to keep it succinct:

"The Morning" newsletter from NYT today basically spent half of its words on the idea that there were "no real alternatives" to a highly chaotic withdrawal and evacuation. In a basic sense, that's true. The US (and Nato) lost the war, and this is what losing a war looks like - evacuation is challenging and messy, former (domestic) allies are identified and murdered by the new regime, etc.

On the other hand, there are a number of very simple things Biden could/should have done that would mitigate some of the disasters of the past two weeks.

#1 The most obvious would be to agree to delay until Winter, as the Afghani officials directly requested this past Spring. Combat operations (particularly major ones like the Taliban executed in the past 8 days to retake the country) are really hard to do in the Afghanistan Winter, so there is usually a sharp drop off of Taliban offensives each Winter. Waiting until November to evacuate would give the Afghani forces time to prepare defenses and give them a better chance of resisting a major Taliban offense in the Spring. Instead, Biden rejected this idea from the Afghani government (which was essentially installed by Biden's predecessors, note), with no serious explanation given as to why.

#2 Biden should also have ensured the operational plans for the withdrawal were far more secret, and less public. It was both a strategic and tactical blunder to announce specific dates (Trump was guilty of this too), and then this blunder is being further amplified by doubling down on not modifying it no matter what is happening. I believe this blunder stems from a belief that the Taliban will inevitably re-take Afghanistan. But it wasn't inevitable as recently as 1 year ago.

#3 And thirdly, and perhaps the most critical, it would have been ridiculously simple to send a very large contingent - say two whole divisions of the US army, and perhaps a few regiments (or even just two battalions) of US marines to the area to explicitly assist in the evacuation and withdrawal. If I'm correct that one reason we foolishly announced loud and clear how and when we're withdrawing is partially because Biden assumes the Taliban will rapidly take over (as they did), then it's even stupider that he didn't provide a large force to simply protect the evacuation and withdrawal itself.  Yes, if we did this the Taliban would believe we are launching new offensives and expanding the war, when we bring in more combat units. So? That would make them more cautious to try a rapid offensive to re-take Kabul under the circumstances. The Taliban has no illusions believing they can win any combined arms battle. They didn't even attack our forces en masse even once from 2014 to this year, when we had a paltry 14000 military personnel or so. There are other challenges created with this last idea, but suffice it to say, it would be eminently possible and allow us to evacuate and withdraw without the level of chaos we've seen.

It is framed in news, polls, and pretty much everywhere that this is "the long war" that we are still fighting after two decades. Sort of. One of the most common misunderstandings about the war at all is the role US and NATO forces play. Since 2014, when Enduring Freedom ended and Freedom's Sentinel took over, nearly all combat operations have been spearheaded by domestic Afghani forces. The US and NATO militaries have provided training, logistical support, air support (which is key), and some small scale anti-terrorism support (i.e., special forces type operations). For seven years the US and NATO militaries haven't really been conducting a war, per se. The Afghani domestic forces have. We've just been supporting them to ensure they persist.

I'm not saying we necessarily should have stayed eternally, but given US combat deaths dropped to double digits yearly in 2014, it's clear this "war" is the calmest and least deadly war the US has ever been involved in. (One way to measure that is the war has been going for about 239 months, and we've had 1833 combat deaths. That's an average of 7.6 per month. Even the first Gulf War would be reckoned at like 149 deaths per month (for a MUCH shorter war), and something like 40 per month on average for the Iraq War (2003-2011).  The only "wars" in which the US has had something like 7 deaths per month on average are not wars at all, but individual, isolated operations (the various imperial interventions our commanders in chief are so fond of (particularly ALL the presidents from Reagan through Obama)).

My point is that we could have drawn down very differently, over more time, done far more professionally and strategically. But we didn't.

What makes this more infuriating is that the primary role of a president, per the US constitution, is to deal with foreign policy (NOT domestic policy). Sadly, over the decades, the US presidency has grown like a cancer to be at least as much (if not more) about domestic politics than dealing with other nations. If Biden ran his presidency like he should, according to his enumerated powers, I think he would have handled it very differently. But his focus is on other matters that are really the province of Congress and the states. Alas.

Would Trump have done any of these things, or done them better? Perhaps not. He was not a brilliant president (though nor was he an abject failure - rather middle of the road in effectiveness, IMO, once you take away the heightened emotions surrounding everything to do with him). But I can see Trump listening to his military advisors more closely on something like this.

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Online Iceman

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2021, 08:46:51 PM »
Agree on most counts, except where you say that Trump would have done a better job listening to his military commanders, but that's not quite here nor there.

Biden botched this, by being too ridgid and not delaying things, or supporting the operation in Kabul with more troops. Absolutely agree. But this was undoubtedly a failure 2 decades in the making and the more I read into things though, the more I see Trump setting this event up to fail.

The deal he struck with the Taliban was a head scratcher in the first place, but was understandable - Americans wanted out. What is striking me more and more is how many breaches of the terms of that deal there have been since it was signed, and the Taliban has suffered zero repercussions. If a deal is contingent upon a set of agreed upon rules, surely the breaking of those rules by one party should lead to reevaluation of the terms of the deal? Look at the timeline of American Military presence since the deal was signed, and compare it to Taliban-held territory and offensive strikes on regional governments/institutions. Why did this deal not get voided by the guy who prides himself on being the best at deals. Ever. Biggly.

By not addressing the inevitable shitshow this was shaping up to be, and completely underestimating the preparedness of the Taliban to seize control the instant the withdrawal created a vacuum, Biden has mud on his face and some blood on his hands. It's mostly for how badly this was handled at the start, as he's done much better in the last several days by presiding over the rapid development of a plan for the efficient evacuation of thousands if people from Kabul. Not enough to save face, but something I guess...

Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2021, 09:19:10 PM »
I'm not sure Trump would have stuck to the deal had he been re-elected. There was no reason for him to publicly announce the deal was void as far back as last Fall when he was a lame duck - and the unofficial back channels that were operating to discuss the real deal and situation were likely considering multiple possibilities, but all unknown because it would have been up to Biden, since he is president when the day actually comes to withdraw.

One thing I do believe, is that if Trump had been re-elected and the same events in Afghanistan that happened in the past two weeks happened just the same, Trump would have been excoriated in the media and public to a level not seen in his first four years.

Biden is being (rightly) criticized across the political spectrum right now, but it still hasn't risen to how much vilification Trump generally received for lesser errors. I guess that's neither here nor there. I mean, I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, nor in 2020.

But it's hard to think of a way this could have been handled even worse by Biden. Defenses of anything he's done regarding this debacle are going to sound really hollow to me. (As will attempts to shift focus on what Trump did or didn't do, or even "might" have done or not done - only Biden can "own" what actually transpired under his watch in a war. He's the commander in chief.).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 09:22:57 PM by existoid »

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Online Iceman

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2021, 10:57:22 PM »
Oh man, Trump would have been absolutely slaughtered in the MSM. Lots of that would have just been the Trump effect, but part of it would have an element of 'making your bed and being forced to lie in it'.

It is hard to think of ways Biden could have done worse with this file... but also easy to think of ways Trump('s transition team) could have made it less challenging for ol Joey No-Pulse to not botch completely (which he may have done any ways)...

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Offline crutonius

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2021, 12:40:26 AM »
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?



Trump didn't happen to mention if his surrendering to the Taliban had anything to do with this?



Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2021, 06:06:00 AM »
After evacuations have ended, is the US military willing to stay in Afghanistan to help with the original mission of helping the Afghan people lift themselves out of poverty while maintaining human rights and human dignity?  Can we help provide NATO support which I think everybody, including the Taliban, will support if its in a peaceful, non-warring state?

Kabul airport is a good place to start.  We already have military and Taliban working together to secure the evacuations.  Perhaps we're evacuating to many people and is why bombers are acting up again.   

Are we ready for diplomacy again?  Can we accept the new power structure in Afghanistan and make peace with the Taliban for the sake of Afghani's and the 20 years work our soldiers put into Afghanistan?  I think it might be easier then everyone thinks.

 
Truth doesn't pick sides.