Have a video for you guys
« on: December 22, 2020, 02:18:10 AM »
I shot this video tonight.  I have described this to flat earth folks before.  This proves a round earth.

Ill just let you guys watch it and if you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.


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Offline Iceman

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2020, 02:50:58 AM »
Explain what people are seeing here. Where is this? What are you flying? What is your starting observing height...ending observing height?

Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2020, 03:18:16 AM »
Explain what people are seeing here. Where is this? What are you flying? What is your starting observing height...ending observing height?

Sure thing.

This is over northern Kentucky at 13,000 feet MSL at the beginning of the video.  We are flying level heading Northwest (HG 300 ish).   We record the sun setting in level flight.  We then initiate a climb to 28,000 feet and make the climb rapidly.  As we ascend you can clearly see the sun appearing to rise back up over the horizon.

This can only happen on a Round/spheroid earth.

Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2020, 06:02:09 AM »
As your aircraft climbed, you were simply able to overcome the limitations of your vision. Please refer to Earth Not a Globe, Chapter 14: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

"At these times it appears close to the horizon where the density of the air differs greatly. The air near the ground is denser than the layer of air just above it, and the layer of air above that is less dense still, and so on upwards until the Earth's atmosphere peters out at some 400 km. Now consider what happens when the Sun is setting. When the Sun is at the horizon, light from the top of the disc is going through the air at a different angle than that from the lower part. So the rays are bent by different amounts before they reach the observer's eye."

And more specific to your particular line of enquiry:

"Those who believe that the earth is a globe have often sought to prove it to be so by quoting the fact that when the ship's hull has disappeared, if an observer ascends to a higher position the hull again becomes visible. But this, is logically premature; such a result arises simply from the fact that on raising his position the eye-line recedes further over the water before it forms the angle of one minute of a degree, and this includes and brings back the hull within the vanishing point."

Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2020, 02:41:37 PM »
As your aircraft climbed, you were simply able to overcome the limitations of your vision. Please refer to Earth Not a Globe, Chapter 14: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

Hogwash... that video is not from my eye... it is taken with a camera at 12x zoom.  None of what you are seeing in the video is a limitation of the human eye.

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"At these times it appears close to the horizon where the density of the air differs greatly. The air near the ground is denser than the layer of air just above it, and the layer of air above that is less dense still, and so on upwards until the Earth's atmosphere peters out at some 400 km. Now consider what happens when the Sun is setting. When the Sun is at the horizon, light from the top of the disc is going through the air at a different angle than that from the lower part. So the rays are bent by different amounts before they reach the observer's eye."

If it were a matter of air density, then the shape of the sun would still be visible, only more dim in the thicker air  and brighter in thin air.  This is why a setting sun become more orange and more dim as you view it through more air when it is close to the horizon.  However, the earth blocking it as it goes below the horizon is a complete shutout of the light and changes the shape of the viewable sun.

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And more specific to your particular line of enquiry:

"Those who believe that the earth is a globe have often sought to prove it to be so by quoting the fact that when the ship's hull has disappeared, if an observer ascends to a higher position the hull again becomes visible. But this, is logically premature; such a result arises simply from the fact that on raising his position the eye-line recedes further over the water before it forms the angle of one minute of a degree, and this includes and brings back the hull within the vanishing point."

In figure 83, they have been deceptive.  If we are supposing a flat earth, there should be no rise in the water in that diagram.  It is cleverly done to make a bad point but furthermore only reinforces that the earth is round by showing that there is a difference in perspective elevation based on distance.

 That all being said.... My video is NOT of a sailboat on the surface of the ocean.  It is of the sun setting behind the horizon as we are flying TOWARDS it at nearly 500 MPH, and then coming back into full view as we gain altitude.

None of what you quoted disputes any of my video, do you have any thoughts of your own?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2020, 04:15:38 PM »
The air near the ground is denser than the layer of air just above it, and the layer of air above that is less dense still, and so on upwards until the Earth's atmosphere peters out at some 400 km. Now consider what happens when the Sun is setting. When the Sun is at the horizon, light from the top of the disc is going through the air at a different angle than that from the lower part. So the rays are bent by different amounts before they reach the observer's eye.

... implying that the appearance of the sun would change gradually with variation in air density, but that doesn't happen. There's a clear on/off ~ light/no light ~ scenario here, where the lower portions of the sun go totally dark, and where part, and eventually the whole, simply cannot be seen at all.

... on raising his position the eye-line recedes further over the water before it forms the angle of one minute of a degree, and this includes and brings back the hull within the vanishing point.

At which point, you could consider examining objects which are not at the "vanishing point". Consider the sightlines to objects far nearer than the horizon, and consider whether or not the sightlines to and beyond them are consistent with a flat earth.

=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2020, 06:28:11 PM »
As your aircraft climbed, you were simply able to overcome the limitations of your vision. Please refer to Earth Not a Globe, Chapter 14: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

The 'limitations of vision' FET argument is utterly ridiculous. Human vision is limited, of course, but it is not limited by range, but by angular resolution. We can see large things a long way away, and small things up close. That's why we can see a lot more with a microscope, or a telescope, than we can with our naked eyes.

Likewise, the perspective argument just falls apart with any kind of basic analysis. Consider a straight road with equidistant streetlights, receding into the distance. The angle between pairs of lights will reduce with increasing distance. But now look at star constellations. If perspective was a factor, then their angular separation would reduce as they close on the horizon. But that doesn't happen, does it?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2020, 06:37:20 PM »
OP: Each FE board has a "read before posting" thread at the top of it. Read them before posting.

Please not that this is not the right board for asking entry-level FET questions. If your post starts with "I'm new and I just wanted to ask" or "The Earth can't be flat because of this concept", you're in the wrong place and should probably be looking at the Flat Earth Theory board (and the FAQ).

Anyway.

This can only happen on a Round/spheroid earth.
It can also happen on the FE+EA model. I can only assume you forgot to familiarise yourself with the subject you're debating prior to debating it. We have fairly high expectations of people who just waltz in here and declare themselves to be correct. Please try to be more careful in the future.

Human vision is limited, of course, but it is not limited by range, but by angular resolution.
This is nonsense. You might want to argue that human vision is theoretically not limited by range, but this is going to fail outside of cutesy high school physics problems. A couple of obvious objections: you assume that the eyes of your hypothetical observer are perfect (they aren't), and that the atmolayer does not exist (it does).

But now look at star constellations. If perspective was a factor, then their angular separation would reduce as they close on the horizon. But that doesn't happen, does it?
This would imply that the stars become proportionally more distant from one another as they appear to approach the horizon. I can't fathom a world in which that would be the case, round or flat.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 06:44:01 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2020, 06:48:44 PM »
Indulge my theory for one sec.  What if the sun was actually behind the image you see in the sunset.   Like, what if the sun was travelling in front of its reflection, and was beyond human sight.   
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2020, 07:37:58 PM »

But now look at star constellations. If perspective was a factor, then their angular separation would reduce as they close on the horizon. But that doesn't happen, does it?
This would imply that the stars become proportionally more distant from one another as they appear to approach the horizon. I can't fathom a world in which that would be the case, round or flat.

The wiki tells us that

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when I stand outside and look into the skies, the star constellations I do not see are simply invisible past the vanishing point, beyond my perspective.

It is arguing that the change in distance between us and the stars as they move around the sky is significant - significant enough for them to recede to some 'vanishing point' as they get close to the horizon, just like the lights on a street going away into the distance.

But this simply doesn't stack up when we look at the stars. The constellations don't change shape at all as they get close to the horizon. The angle between each star appears the same as they lower in the sky before disappearing below the horizon out of sight. If they were so distant that they were reaching a vanishing point then they would get closer and closer together before disappearing. But they don't do that, do they?

In fact, if you have equipment sensitive enough, you can actually measure tiny parallax changes between the stars, as the earth moves around the sun and as the stars themselves move. This has been used to measure the distance between us and distant stars in both our own galaxy and other more distant ones. Indeed, an entire system of measurement, parsecs, is based on this stellar parallax principle. The point to take away is that the perspective changes provide overwhelming evidence that the stars are a long, long away from us - that's why their position with respect to each other doesn't seem to change much at all. Unlike the street lights in my example they aren't hundreds of yards away, they are thousands of light years in the distance, meaning that moving around by a few thousand miles on the surface of earth doesn't change their relative position by any discernible amount.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2020, 08:07:05 PM »
It is arguing that the change in distance between us and the stars as they move around the sky is significant
That is not what it's saying. The vanishing point is a fairly well defined concept. You do not need to substitute it with something that it is not.
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2020, 10:23:36 PM »
That is not what it's saying. The vanishing point is a fairly well defined concept. You do not need to substitute it with something that it is not.

Ok, help me out here then. What is it saying?

Why does, in my road/streetlights example, the angle between the streetlights reduce towards the 'vanishing point', but the angle between the stars not reduce?

I can only think of one possible reason, but I'm assuming by the fact you're taking issue with my point that you have an alternative?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2020, 12:01:38 AM »
Ok, help me out here then. What is it saying?
I'm afraid I don't know how to help you. The phrasing used in the Wiki is so intuitive to me that I can't think of a way to rephrase it more clearly. I'm getting the feeling that English might not be your first language, and being an ESL speaker myself I completely sympathise.

My best suggestion is that you have a look at how the vanishing point is defined in optics and the arts. Perhaps you'll find a phrasing that speaks to you?

Why does, in my road/streetlights example, the angle between the streetlights reduce towards the 'vanishing point', but the angle between the stars not reduce?
You misunderstand. You claim there is a contrast where there isn't. The separation between a straight line of points would decrease with distance regardless of the angle between the horizon and the line in question (in other words: the angle between stars *does* appear to decrease, and you have no point of reference to compare this with), as long as it's not being observed dead-on (i.e. 0/x=0 for most values of x). This is a simple consequence of parallax, and is completely independent of any RE vs FE arguments - it's a misunderstanding of basic optics. I can try to help visualise this, but I currently don't understand where your misconception is coming from. You'd have to provide more detail.

In short: if your current assumptions were correct, neither FE nor RE could be correct. In fact, the immediate surroundings of my home couldn't exist. Something is extremely wrong with your suggestions, but without further clarification it's impossible to pinpoint.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:04:04 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2020, 09:38:58 AM »
In short: if your current assumptions were correct, neither FE nor RE could be correct. In fact, the immediate surroundings of my home couldn't exist. Something is extremely wrong with your suggestions, but without further clarification it's impossible to pinpoint.

You've misunderstood what I'm talking about. Let's try some pictures. Consider a street scene, like the one I described:



Forget about the horizon, forget about any vertical positions, and just look at the apparent width between the successive lampposts. It reduces as they get further away from the observer, even though in reality the posts are equidistant - that, I hope, is a consequence of perspective that we can both agree on - yes? So the azimuth angle subtended at the eyes of our observer, between successive pairs of posts, is getting smaller as the viewing distance increases. Agree?

Now consider a large constellation, such as Orion:



Orion measures roughly 20 degrees tall by 10 degrees wide (note the x-axis on diagrams like this tends to be 'hours' as opposed to degrees, where one hour = 15 degrees). If perspective was playing a role in how we view things close to the horizon then, as it moved from, say, directly above us to being close to the horizon we would expect to see a reduction in size (and indeed a change in shape) of the constellation - agree? But we don't. You can measure Orion anywhere in the sky and, barring minor changes for refraction close to the horizon you will observe the same roughly 10 degree x 20 degree shape.

How does FET explain this anomaly? You can't invoke perspective to explain a phenomenon, such as the stars disappearing below the horizon, if there is no discernible perspective effect on the stars when they are visible as they move around the sky.



[edited due to picture error in first attempt]




« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 09:43:55 AM by SteelyBob »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2020, 10:12:01 AM »
You've misunderstood what I'm talking about.
I understood you the first time around. Your explanation is a complete mess, and I really don't know how to help you unravel it if you refuse to start working through it.

You can't "forget about the horizon" when discussing the horizon's obstruction of the stars. It's an entirely crucial element of the puzzle. However, this does not mean that the rules of perspective *change* around the horizon.

we would expect to see a reduction in size (and indeed a change in shape) of the constellation - agree?
I don't know how many times or how strongly you need me to say this, but for the fourth time: No, we would not expect that. Your entire explanation relies on that assumption, which seems to have come out of nowhere, and just happens to be nonsense.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 10:14:32 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2020, 12:54:57 PM »
You can't "forget about the horizon" when discussing the horizon's obstruction of the stars.

I wasn't asking you to do that. I was simply asking you to look at a picture of some streetlamps and agree with me that the azimuth angle between the receding lampposts was reducing.

If the azimuth angle between the lampposts reduces as they become more distant, why doesn't the same thing happen to the stars?

It's a really simple question.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2020, 01:54:49 PM »
If the azimuth angle between the lampposts reduces as they become more distant, why doesn't the same thing happen to the stars?
For a hypothetical scenario in which a number of stars are perfectly aligned, equidistant, and viewed from an appropriate angle - it does.

The problem with such a hypothetical scenario is that it can be easily misinterpreted - as you have demonstrated. The effect you're describing is already occurring, but you're expecting it to apply twice, for reasons unexplained.
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2020, 03:33:52 PM »
For a hypothetical scenario in which a number of stars are perfectly aligned, equidistant, and viewed from an appropriate angle - it does.

But you don't need a hypothetical scenario, and you don't need a series of equidistant stars. You just need the same constellation, such as Orion in my example, viewed at two different positions. Look at Orion when it's directly above you and measure the angular width - about 10 degrees. Now wait until it's lower in the sky and measure the width again...10 degrees. Why doesn't the angle change, as it does with the streetlights, if it's moving towards the 'vanishing point', as the wiki asserts?

Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2020, 04:37:19 PM »
All this "vanishing point" and especially angular resolution talk is completely irrelevant... It does not apply to anything PRODUCING OR REFLECTING LIGHT.

So I get it... an object will eventually vanish when it is far enough away from the human eye.  However, if said object was a Laser and  twice the distance of the "vanishing point" away or at half the angular resolution the human eye can see, then laser was turned on and aimed at the observers eye... the observer can then see it.

My video is of the SUN... a light emitting object.  Vanishing point and angular resolution are irrelevant.

Re: Have a video for you guys
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2020, 04:44:44 PM »
I do wonder if Pete has ever watched the stars much. Has he witnessed Orion's belt become Orion's watchstrap as it sets in the west? Has he seen Castor and Pollux in Gemini increase their social distancing as they rise from the east? Did he notice Cygnus become a Sparrow as it drops in the northwest from the UK or Draco shrink to a Gecko?

The stars don't become further apart as they rise from the eastern horizon, nor do they come closer together as they vanish over the west. Anyone familiar with astronomy and stellar navigation understands that from observation and common experience, and quoting Rowbotham (as the wiki does) won't change the night sky.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.