Some perspective on perspective
« on: April 29, 2016, 05:52:50 PM »
I’ve seen a lot of confused discussion of perspective on this forum as well as on the Wiki. I think some of this confusion arises because “perspective” has at least two distinct meanings in the context of scientific discussions:

(1) A branch of geometry that considers where straight lines drawn between a specified point P and a set of other points in three dimensions will intersect with a plane placed between P and the other points. Perspective in this sense was pioneered by ancient Greeks such as Euclid and was further developed during the Renaissance to assist artists, on the assumption that light travels in straight lines, in producing paintings and drawings with a more realistic 3-D look. To my knowledge no one has found any logical flaws in the proofs of the theorems of perspective in this sense, so it still stands as an established field of geometry. Let’s call this kind of perspective “perspectiveG” for purposes of this discussion.

(2) A branch of optics, which in turn is a branch of physics, that studies what happens to light when it passes through air. This is sometimes called “aerial perspective,” so let’s call it “perspectiveA.”

Let’s further distinguish both of these senses of “perspective” from the study of how the human eye perceives light and how the brain interprets the messages it receives from the eye. That is vision science, which overlaps with neuroscience, psychology, ophthalmology, and other sciences.

Bearing these distinctions in mind, I want to look at some comments from Tom Bishop, not to pick on Tom (whose courtesy and apparent sincerity I appreciate) but because he seems to post frequently on perspective. I hope I am not distorting his meaning by taking his quotes out of context:

Quote
Tom Bishop:
I'm asking for some sort of evidence that perspective works the way the Ancient Greek math says it works. Will two parallel lines really recede forever into the distance and never appear to touch? That seems extraordinary.

Why should we believe that just because an ancient greek philosopher said that a perfect world would be that way?

To begin with, ancient Greek math, in this case Euclid, defined parallel straight lines as “straight lines which, being in the same plane and being produced indefinitely in both directions, do not meet one another in either direction.” You can’t refute a definition, and you can’t refute math without showing a logical flaw in the reasoning. What Tom seems to be talking about here is how distant objects will actually appear to the human eye and brain. The science of optics covers what happens to light as it travels from the objects to the eye, and vision science studies how our brains interpret the light received by the eye (for instance, whether we perceive one object or two when they are separated by 1 second of arc), so this is a question of optics and vision science.

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Tom Bishop:
How do we "know" what happens to perspective tens or hundreds of miles away? Who studied that?
Perspective hasn't been tested at any large distance at all. At what distances has it been tested? Who studied it? Please name names and cite studies rather than claiming that it has been proven.

Here Tom is apparently talking about perspectiveA, not perspectiveG – he’s asking how objects actually appear to us when viewed through hundreds of miles of air. But we actually know, beyond reasonable doubt, a great deal about this. The science of optics is well developed and extremely successful at explaining the behavior of light, including what happens to it as it passes through air containing moisture and dust and with temperature and pressure gradients. We can’t directly test what happens to light when it passes through 6000 miles of air because no one has been able to find 6000 miles of the earth’s atmosphere in a straight line. In any case, modern optics provides absolutely no grounds for supposing that light performs the acrobatics posited by FET to explain how the moon displays the same phase simultaneously to all viewers, or how the sun and moon appear to set, or how they maintain the same angular diameter, all while remaining above a flat earth.

Of course, you can argue that mainstream optics is wrong about this – but then you need to come up with better theories that do a better job of explanation and prediction than the currently accepted ones. This is just one instance of what we may call The Big Problem with Flat Earth Theory, namely the fact that FET tosses out large chunks of mainstream science without offering any mutually consistent alternative theories that do at least as good a job of explanation and prediction as the mainstream theories, which include Round Earth Theory. Since what we want from scientific theories is to explain and predict what we observe, we are left with no rational reason to switch to the FE side.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2016, 08:04:54 PM »
Excellent writeup. Now we can use this thread to debate perspective instead of constantly derailing other threads.

I would like to expand on your response to the first quote by Tom Bishop:

Quote
Tom Bishop:
I'm asking for some sort of evidence that perspective works the way the Ancient Greek math says it works. Will two parallel lines really recede forever into the distance and never appear to touch? That seems extraordinary.

Why should we believe that just because an ancient greek philosopher said that a perfect world would be that way?

Parallel lines never touch, by definition. If they do touch, then they aren't parallel.

However, things get a little complicated when we project lines that are parallel in 3D space onto a 2D surface ("perspectiveG"). Look at the following picture:



  • The lines that are parallel in 3D space, are no longer necessarily parallel when projected onto a 2D surface. This is what we mean when we say they "appear" to touch. They "appear" to touch at the vanishing point (V' in the picture). Just because they "appear" to touch in the 2D projection, does not mean that they touch in 3D space.
  • The vanishing point only exists in the 2D projection, not in 3D space. If you follow the parallel lines in 3D space, you will NEVER arrive at the vanishing point. This is what we mean when we say "the vanishing point is at an infinite distance away"

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2016, 09:05:55 PM »
  • The lines that are parallel in 3D space, are no longer necessarily parallel when projected onto a 2D surface. This is what we mean when we say they "appear" to touch. They "appear" to touch at the vanishing point (V' in the picture). Just because they "appear" to touch in the 2D projection, does not mean that they touch in 3D space.
  • The vanishing point only exists in the 2D projection, not in 3D space. If you follow the parallel lines in 3D space, you will NEVER arrive at the vanishing point. This is what we mean when we say "the vanishing point is at an infinite distance away"

Yes. The term "vanishing point" is another source of confusion. Primarily, it refers to a point on the picture plane (e.g., a window pane) where the projection of parallel lines (e.g., railroad tracks on a flat surface) would intersect if the projection lines were extended. It could also refer to a point in your visual field to which the parallel lines (railroad tracks) appear to converge. For example, if you lie on your back in a room, you will see with the aid of a broom handle or yardstick that all the vertical lines in the room appear to converge toward the spot on the ceiling directly above your head, and toward the spot on the floor directly beneath you.

VP does not mean a point where parallel lines or their projections onto a plane actually meet, because they don't. Nor does it mean a point at which objects vanish (become imperceptible to human vision) as they move away from the viewer. I don't know if there is a term for such a point, but it's not what VP means.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 04:01:39 AM »
  • The lines that are parallel in 3D space, are no longer necessarily parallel when projected onto a 2D surface. This is what we mean when we say they "appear" to touch. They "appear" to touch at the vanishing point (V' in the picture). Just because they "appear" to touch in the 2D projection, does not mean that they touch in 3D space.
  • The vanishing point only exists in the 2D projection, not in 3D space. If you follow the parallel lines in 3D space, you will NEVER arrive at the vanishing point. This is what we mean when we say "the vanishing point is at an infinite distance away"

Yes. The term "vanishing point" is another source of confusion. Primarily, it refers to a point on the picture plane (e.g., a window pane) where the projection of parallel lines (e.g., railroad tracks on a flat surface) would intersect if the projection lines were extended. It could also refer to a point in your visual field to which the parallel lines (railroad tracks) appear to converge. For example, if you lie on your back in a room, you will see with the aid of a broom handle or yardstick that all the vertical lines in the room appear to converge toward the spot on the ceiling directly above your head, and toward the spot on the floor directly beneath you.

VP does not mean a point where parallel lines or their projections onto a plane actually meet, because they don't. Nor does it mean a point at which objects vanish (become imperceptible to human vision) as they move away from the viewer. I don't know if there is a term for such a point, but it's not what VP means.

What bugs me is that the FEers claim the "Laws of Perspective" prove this and that (you can look it all up),
but when you try to find references all you get are "Rules of Perspective" relating to drawing and painting, and most seems to date from the 1400s, not Greek times.

Also they seem to insist that the Vanishing Point is on the visible horizon, which is demonstrably untrue!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 04:26:36 AM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 04:53:22 AM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

The "math of the ancient Greeks" says that parallel lines SHOULD appear to touch on a 2D projection. And they do. What's the problem?

Please try to understand the distinction:
They DON'T actually touch in reality, by definition.
They DO touch in a 2D projection.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 04:59:15 AM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2016, 05:21:17 AM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.


The lines do not actually touch.
THEY ONLY APPEAR TO TOUCH!!!
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 10:28:27 AM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.
Can't you ever see the difference between touch and appear to touch?

Saying "they visibly do touch" is quite a meaningless statement. It would be far more accurate to say "they appear to touch".
Then you claim "That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model." Rubbish! Those Greeks never denied that parallel lines appeared to touch. All they said was that they did not touch.

Imagine the lines in question are railway tracks. They would appear to touch in about 3 miles (at a guess), but quite importantly they clearly do not touch, or that TGV flying past us at 200 mph is going to be in BIG BIG BIG TROUBLE in a bit under one minute!

The rays of light in this photo certainly appear to originate within that cloud,
yet that is clearly not possible.
The light rays originate from the sun (either 3,000 or 93,000,000 miles away) and what we see is simply perspective.

The actual light rays in either case are near enough to parallel, yet appear to come from a nearby very small source.

Actually touching in that cloud and appearing to touch in that cloud are very different things.

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 03:52:34 PM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

A perfect illustration of the fallacy you've fallen into appeared in another thread, I present it here for those who don't read every discussion:
This one shows the Suez Canal going to the horizon. I would rather have had one taken with a normal lens and not a wide angle like this - any appearance of curvature is the camera!

From - Timelapse of Adrian Mærsk sailing down the expanded Suez Canal

There are undoubtedly better examples, but...the "vanishing point" is an aid to drawing, not a "physical point". Small objects seem to vanish in quite a short distance. If the resolution of the human eye is about 1' of arc (as I believe the Wiki says) the vanishing distances would be about...130 miles for the 200' width of New Suez canal (but with the quality of that photo and lack of contrast, I doubt it would be that far).

Look at the containers on the ship.  They "visibly" shrink as the distance from the camera increases, they are "visibly" converging on a vanishing point, and if they went far enough out they would "visibly" touch.  But we all know that in reality, they do not ACTUALLY shrink, they don't ACTUALLY converge, they don't ACTUALLY touch, and the sides that we say are parallel, truly ARE parallel, all the way out.  This illustrates the difference between a two-dimensional REPRESENTATION of the world, and the three dimensional REALITY of the world. 

Unwillingness to admit (or failure to understand) the difference is the primary failing of the Zetetic "what it LOOKS LIKE is what is IS" approach to inquiry.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 04:01:17 PM »
If we see that they appear touch, and the Greek's continuous universe math that they should not appear to touch, that is evidence suggesting that they are wrong in their theories of perspective. It is certainly not evidence that they are correct.

I am not arguing that the lines physically touch, only that they appear to, which goes hand-in-hand with the belief that the sun can appear to touch the earth without it physically doing so. The effect of two parallel lines touching is more evidence towards a Flat Earth model where the celestial bodies can touch the earth than it is evidence for a Greek universe where parallel lines should never touch.

Under the "appearances can be deceiving" mantra you are promoting, where things things don't "ACTUALLY touch" you are also arguing against the physics of your own model, agreeing with the Flat Earth position on this matter that how things appear with perspective may not be how they are.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 11:25:48 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline thatsnice

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 06:10:31 PM »
If we see that they appear touch, and the Greeks continuous universe math that they should not appear to touch, that is evidence suggesting that they are wrong in their theories of perspective. It is certainly not evidence that they are correct.

Well first of all, Greek math states that they DO appear to touch and that they don't physically touch, not the other way around.

I am not arguing that the lines physically touch, only that they appear to, which goes hand-in-hand with the belief that the sun can appear to touch the earth without it physically doing so. The effect of two parallel lines touching is more evidence towards a Flat Earth model where the celestial bodies can touch the earth than it is evidence for a Greek universe where parallel lines should never touch.

Second of all, it doesn't go "hand in hand" because even if this were true and we had enough distance from the sun for this to theoretically happen, it would appear only to touch the surface and not actually reach any vanishing point(vanishing points are a construct only possible in a 2 dimensional world). This means that if it were able to go any farther away(this distance is almost unfathomably far away at this point), it would uniformly disappear above the horizon due to Rayleigh scattering , which it doesn't do.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 07:11:14 PM by thatsnice »
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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2016, 07:03:39 PM »
If we see that they appear touch, and the Greeks continuous universe math that they should not appear to touch, that is evidence suggesting that they are wrong in their theories of perspective. It is certainly not evidence that they are correct.

I’m not aware that any Greek geometer or astronomer ever said that parallel lines never appear to touch. And even if they did, it wouldn’t discredit their geometry, because “parallel lines never appear to meet” is not a mathematical proposition, it’s a statement about how certain objects appear to the human eye.

Quote
I am not arguing that the lines physically touch, only that they appear to, which goes hand-in-hand with the belief that the sun can appear to touch the earth without it physically doing so. The effect of two parallel lines touching is more evidence towards a Flat Earth model where the celestial bodies can touch the earth than it is evidence for a Greek universe where parallel lines should never touch.

I agree that if the sun were far enough away, it could seem to touch the horizon while remaining at an altitude of 3000 miles. But do the math and see how far it would have to be. The required distance is

     d = 3000/(tan\theta) miles,

where \theta is the angle at which the sun appears to be above the horizon. Let’s conservatively estimate that if the bottom edge of the sun were 10 minutes of arc (0.167 degrees) above the horizon, it would appear to touch it. Then we have

     d = 3000/(tan 0.167) = 3000/0.002915 = 1,029,263 miles,

if it remained 3000 miles above a flat earth. And that’s not taking refraction into account, which would usually increase the apparent angle above the horizon. There’s no way around this unless you posit hitherto unknown optical phenomena for which I know of no corroborating evidence. And of course RET explains the appearance and path of the sun and moon very simply and accurately.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 08:41:18 PM »
From the Wiki (http://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect):

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On the sinking ship, Rowbotham describes a mechanism by which the hull is hidden by the angular limits of perception - the ship will appear to intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the hull's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent on which the hull is so close to the surface of the ocean that the two are indistinguishable. The ship's hull gets so close to the surface of the water as it recedes that they appear to merge together. Where bodies get so close together that they appear to merge is called the Vanishing Point.

That is not what “Vanishing Point” generally means in discussions of perspective. It means a point on the drawing board or canvas toward which lines representing actually parallel lines (such as railroad tracks) appear to converge in the drawing, whether or not these lines actually meet in the drawing. By extension it refers to a similar point in one’s field of vision; for example, all actually vertical lines appear to converge toward the zenith (and nadir). However, if the author of the article wants to use “Vanishing Point” in a special sense as a technical term for purposes of this discussion, that’s fine as long as we don’t confuse it with the normal sense of the term. So let’s call a point at which two objects appear to merge from a specified viewpoint a “VPM.”

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The Vanishing Point [VPM] is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point [VPM] a finite distance away from the observer.

Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point [VPM] is an infinite distance away from the observer […]

Nope. This would be equivalent to saying that the human eye can always distinguish two objects, i.e., see them as two separate objects, no matter how far they are from the observer. Maybe there are art teachers who are that ignorant of their own subject, but I don’t know of any.

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[drawings omitted]
This finite distance to the vanishing point [VPM] is what allows ships to shrink into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point [VPM] from the bottom up. As the boat recedes into the distance its hull is gradually and perceptively appearing closer and closer to the surface of the sea. At a far off point the hull of the ship is so close to the sea's surface that it is impossible for the observer to tell ocean from hull.

While the sails of the ship may still be visible while the hull is perceptively merged, it's only a matter of time before it too shrinks into the vanishing point [VPM] which rests on the surface of the sea and becomes indiscernible from the surface.

We know that this explanation is true because there are reports of half sunken ships restored by looking at them through telescopes. It has been found that the sinking ship effect effect is purely perceptual, that a good telescope with sufficient zoom will change the observer's perspective and bring the ship's hull back in full view.

That is not at all what has been found. It's a common observation to see only the top parts of ships, the lower parts being below the horizon, whether seen by the naked eye or through a telescope. If flat-earthers believe that a sufficiently high-powered telescope will always bring the hull into view, let's see some convincing documentation of this phenomenon.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 09:00:03 PM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

The "math of the ancient Greeks" says that parallel lines SHOULD appear to touch on a 2D projection. And they do. What's the problem?

Please try to understand the distinction:
They DON'T actually touch in reality, by definition.
They DO touch in a 2D projection.

Minor correction: the projection of actually parallel lines from 3-D space onto a plane will always be separate lines that never meet. Projection onto a plane is just like looking through a window pane and imagining what you see to be painted on the glass. However, they could be so close together on the plane that the human eye could not tell whether they actually met or not. That's a question of human eye's perceptual capability, not geometry.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 09:29:35 PM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

The "math of the ancient Greeks" says that parallel lines SHOULD appear to touch on a 2D projection. And they do. What's the problem?

Please try to understand the distinction:
They DON'T actually touch in reality, by definition.
They DO touch in a 2D projection.

Minor correction: the projection of actually parallel lines from 3-D space onto a plane will always be separate lines that never meet. Projection onto a plane is just like looking through a window pane and imagining what you see to be painted on the glass. However, they could be so close together on the plane that the human eye could not tell whether they actually met or not. That's a question of human eye's perceptual capability, not geometry.

No. We are talking about a perspective projection here. The lines will absolutely always meet on a 2D perspective projection. They will meet at the vanishing point. The vanishing point is a very real and calculable point on the 2D plane. It has nothing to do with the human eyes' perception capability.

Lines (extended to infinity) will always meet at the vanishing point on the 2D perspective projeciton. Parallel line segments (that don't extend to infinity in 3D) will never actually meet on the 2D projection.

The vanishing point is NOT a real point in 3D space. I think this is what confuses people.

Edit: If you parameterize the lines according to their distance away from the observer in 3D space, then you can never reach the vanishing point on the 2D plane by increasing the parameter. Perhaps this is what you mean? If this is what you mean, I would advise against pushing this point, because it seems to be confusing Tom Bishop. Keep it simple as possible.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 10:06:47 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2016, 09:46:45 PM »
The math of the ancient Greeks says that two parallel lines should never touch. But, as admitted, they visibly do touch. How is that a proof that the Greeks were correct in their world model? That is direct evidence that they were wrong about their world model.

The "math of the ancient Greeks" says that parallel lines SHOULD appear to touch on a 2D projection. And they do. What's the problem?

Please try to understand the distinction:
They DON'T actually touch in reality, by definition.
They DO touch in a 2D projection.

Minor correction: the projection of actually parallel lines from 3-D space onto a plane will always be separate lines that never meet. Projection onto a plane is just like looking through a window pane and imagining what you see to be painted on the glass. However, they could be so close together on the plane that the human eye could not tell whether they actually met or not. That's a question of human eye's perceptual capability, not geometry.

No. We are talking about a perspective projection here. The lines will absolutely always meet on a 2D perspective projection. They will meet at the vanishing point. The vanishing point is a very real and calculable point on the 2D plane. It has nothing to do with the human eyes' perception capability.

If I understand you, you are saying that the line segments in the projection will meet if extended. [Edit: Or you were simply referring to infinite parallel lines, while I was talking about lines with a finite length.] I agree; they will meet at the vanishing point. But line segments that are projections of (actual, finite) parallel lines will not actually meet in the 2D plane, although they can come close enough so that the eye cannot tell the difference. In the same way, vertical lines like telephone poles will meet at the zenith if extended, but will not actually meet there without being extended.

Quote
The vanishing point is NOT a real point in 3D space. I think this is what confuses people.

That is certainly one thing that confuses people.

Quote
Edit: If you parameterize the lines according to their distance away from the observer in 3D space, then you can never reach the vanishing point on the 2D plane by increasing the parameter. Perhaps this is what you mean? If this is what you mean, I would advise against pushing this point, because it seems to be confusing Tom Bishop. Keep it simple as possible.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In any case, I'm trying to keep things "as simple as possible, but not simpler."  ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 10:03:23 PM by Roundabout »

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2016, 10:03:18 PM »
If I understand you, you are saying that the line segments in the projection will meet if extended. I agree; they will meet at the vanishing point. But line segments that are projections of (actual, finite) parallel lines will not actually meet in the 2D plane, although they can come close enough so that the eye cannot tell the difference. In the same way, vertical lines like telephone poles will meet at the zenith if extended, but will not actually meet there without being extended.

You are exactly right about this. I was being too pedantic. Parallel line segments will never ever meet on the 2D projection. They only appear to meet if they are so far away that the human eye can't distinguish the distance between them.

Quote
Quote
Edit: blah blah blah... me being stupid... blah

I'm not sure what you mean here. In any case, I'm trying to keep things "as simple as possible, but not simpler."  ;)

Feel free to ignore that part...

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2016, 10:08:14 PM »
Well first of all, Greek math states that they DO appear to touch and that they don't physically touch, not the other way around.

No, they don't. We never learn that in Geometry class. The Ancient Greek geometry math assumes that we live in a continuous universe where resolution is infinite and where perfect circles could exist. The model says that two parallel lines should never touch in such a perfect universe.

However, two parallel lines do seem to touch, perhaps due to several other factors, and therefore, it follows that the model is not an accurate reflection of reality, especially at extreme distances.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 11:26:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2016, 10:09:25 PM »
If I understand you, you are saying that the line segments in the projection will meet if extended. I agree; they will meet at the vanishing point. But line segments that are projections of (actual, finite) parallel lines will not actually meet in the 2D plane, although they can come close enough so that the eye cannot tell the difference. In the same way, vertical lines like telephone poles will meet at the zenith if extended, but will not actually meet there without being extended.

You are exactly right about this. I was being too pedantic. Parallel line segments will never ever meet on the 2D projection. They only appear to meet if they are so far away that the human eye can't distinguish the distance between them.

There's no such thing as "too pedantic" in my world. At any rate, our parallel thinking processes seem to have met in the 2D plane of this forum.

Re: Some perspective on perspective
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2016, 10:27:00 PM »
Well first of all, Greek math states that they DO appear to touch and that they don't physically touch, not the other way around.

No, they don't. We never learn that in Geometry class. The greek's geometry math assumes that we live in a continuous universe where resolution is infinite and where perfect circles could exist. The model says that two parallel lines should never touch in such a perfect universe.

For lines of finite length, this is true. This is a pretty good assumption. Why would this not be a good assumption?

Quote
However, two parallel lines do seem to touch, perhaps due to several other factors, and therefore, ...

Yes, but they only seem to touch if they are far enough away relative to the distance between them. The specific factor that causes them to seem to touch is the fact that cameras and eyes do NOT have infinite resolution.

Quote
...it follows that the model is not an accurate reflection of reality, especially at extreme distances.

If our eyes had infinite resolution, then perhaps that would indeed follow. But they don't, so it doesn't.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 10:28:47 PM by TotesNotReptilian »