[Dr David Thork]

So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?

We want to use the sundial that works best. It happens to be a globe.  But yes, the deck is also completely in our favor. Sorry! You lose!

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

[Rama Set]

So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?

We want to use the sundial that works best. It happens to be a globe.  But yes, the deck is also completely in our favor. Sorry! You lose!

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

Not all flat sundials work everywhere.  The only one that works everywhere is based on a globe.  Sawwwy.

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

[Curious Squirrel]

I'm sorry, if you can't see how the flat earth makes the concept of a clock even easier, I'm not going to be able to point that out to you. You even show an animated sun keeping time as it travels around a flat earth's face. The sun even goes the same direction as a clock ... clockwise! North and south hemisphere. On a round earth, people in the southern hemisphere's clocks should go backwards! FET 4 the win.

So, I know I'm digging back into this thread a fair bit, but I just had a thought, verified it, and would like to present it quick. Southern hemisphere sundials DO go backwards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Sundial_in_Supreme_Court_Gardens%2C_Perth.jpg
This image is large and it feels smarter to link directly to it instead of putting it inline, so that people can see it at full size with no issues. Make sure to zoom in and look at the numbers going in the other direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere

So the basis of your entire objection is faulty.

[Rama Set]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread. And they aren't calibrated with a globe earth. They are aligned with the path of the sun from your position on earth. An important distinction.

So, I know I'm digging back into this thread a fair bit, but I just had a thought, verified it, and would like to present it quick. Southern hemisphere sundials DO go backwards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Sundial_in_Supreme_Court_Gardens%2C_Perth.jpg
This image is large and it feels smarter to link directly to it instead of putting it inline, so that people can see it at full size with no issues. Make sure to zoom in and look at the numbers going in the other direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere

So the basis of your entire objection is faulty.

I told you that. My point was that the Southern hemisphere doesn't use clocks that go backwards as you'd expect on a round earth for precisely that reason.

[Rama Set]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

[Curious Squirrel]

So, I know I'm digging back into this thread a fair bit, but I just had a thought, verified it, and would like to present it quick. Southern hemisphere sundials DO go backwards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Sundial_in_Supreme_Court_Gardens%2C_Perth.jpg
This image is large and it feels smarter to link directly to it instead of putting it inline, so that people can see it at full size with no issues. Make sure to zoom in and look at the numbers going in the other direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere

So the basis of your entire objection is faulty.

I told you that. My point was that the Southern hemisphere doesn't use clocks that go backwards as you'd expect on a round earth for precisely that reason.

Sorry, what? Their clocks not going the other direction has a bearing on this for what reason at this point in time, when we're talking about sundials? I'm reasonably certain (and a very brief wiki look appears to confirm my suspicions) that modern faced clocks didn't become prominent until after a fair bit of intermingling between North and South hemisphere's. So why would they have developed modern looking clocks that looked different? Presuming I'm grasping your statement correctly.

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

[Rama Set]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

I already said, flat sundials need to be calibrated, just as globe ones do. What point are you trying to make?

[Rama Set]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

I already said, flat sundials need to be calibrated, just as globe ones do. What point are you trying to make?

That sundials work based on the Earth being a globe, as I have explicitly stated.

[Dr David Thork]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

No but they also weren’t traveling all over the world were they?  Are you disputing that the gnomon on a sundial must be adjusted for latitude? Are you aware that the eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit cause predictable errors in sundials based on a heliocentric model of the solar system and General Relativity?

I already said, flat sundials need to be calibrated, just as globe ones do. What point are you trying to make?

That sundials work based on the Earth being a globe, as I have explicitly stated.

Prove it.

[Tom Haws]

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

I will use a flat "sundial" today at my house and run the JocelynSachs experiment. Will you?

[Curious Squirrel]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

[Dr David Thork]

Well it turns out flat sundials work too. What we have here is round earther's trying to cheat a win so as they can maintain their normalisation bias. Basically more of the blue pill.

I will use a flat "sundial" today at my house and run the JocelynSachs experiment. Will you?

No. https://darksky.net/details/51.5085,-0.1257/2017-12-20/us12/en

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again. The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

[Rama Set]

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

Physician heal thyself.

[Curious Squirrel]

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again. The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

Oh I've read the whole thing. You were discussing there how sundials needed to be adjusted based on location/coordinates. Which is ONLY true of polar axis, even hour sundials. You made a reference to if 'the ancients' were using equations relating to the movement of the sun/earth system. I was pointing out that 'the ancients' didn't use sundials that required such information, and they were in fact not in use until nearly 1400. Not sure how that's 'moving the goalposts' but ok.

[Dr David Thork]

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

We have poles on a flat earth to. All you are doing is aligning north south and angling based on your latitude (sun slant from the equator).  Flat earth has no issue with sundials like this, any more than round earth has an issue with flat sundials. It is just reverse two-way geometry.

Flat ones absolutely work everywhere. They need calibrating, but so do the globe ones. Where on earth would a flat sundial not work please?

I have to apologize, I was mistaken.  All flat sundials work everywhere, but only if you adjust them for the correct coordinates.  Coordinates that are based on the Earth being a globe. My mistake, but it doesn't really help you does it?

Well it doesn't discredit the earth as flat either ... the point of this thread.

To get a flat sundial to work, it must be oriented to reflect its position in a heliocentric solar system using globe based coordinates.

Which globe based co-ordinates? Tell me, were the ancients using WGS 84?

'The ancients'? We have no evidence of a polar-axis, even-hour sundial prior to nearly the 1400's. That's not exactly 'ancient' by my count.

You are embarressing yourself again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Ancient_sundials

You really are when you don't bother to actually *read* what I said. Bolded the relevant bits in the earlier post and helpfully linked to what I'm talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials#Modern_dialing

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again. The thing about rainbows is every time you get closer to them, they move away from you. Stop with your rainbow reasoning.

Oh I've read the whole thing. You were discussing there how sundials needed to be adjusted based on location/coordinates. Which is ONLY true of polar axis, even hour sundials. You made a reference to if 'the ancients' were using equations relating to the movement of the sun/earth system. I was pointing out that 'the ancients' didn't use sundials that required such information, and they were in fact not in use until nearly 1400. Not sure how that's 'moving the goalposts' but ok.

Apology accepted.