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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2880 on: June 19, 2018, 11:25:28 AM »
They are not treating asylum seekers who enter legally through legal ports of entry as criminals. They are treating people who break the law and cross the border illegally and then, once caught, seek asylum as criminals. Big difference.


That's not what I've read.
People who go to legal ports of entry to seek asylum get persecuted as illegals.

And seems I was wrong.They're being turned away.
If that has happened it's against the current policy.

People get turned away for two reasons:

  • The number of potential immigrants has tripled (Do you think the capacity for receiving immigrants is infinite?)
  • People crossing the border illegally, essentially jumping the queue
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2881 on: June 19, 2018, 12:56:31 PM »
This applies to any adult with a child out in public.
I sure as hell don't carry either of my kid's birth certificate around with me.

There's a rather large difference between simply being out in public and trying to scramble across a border that already supports enormous amounts of drug and human trafficking. Use your brain, Dave.

If I just suddenly showed up to Norway on a boat with a bunch of women and children, do you think the Norwegian authorities would jail us all together? According to you, I should just tell them I'm "seeking asylum" and then everything is fine. You know that doesn't make any sense, why are you proposing it should?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 12:58:42 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2882 on: June 19, 2018, 02:11:26 PM »
This applies to any adult with a child out in public.
I sure as hell don't carry either of my kid's birth certificate around with me.

There's a rather large difference between simply being out in public and trying to scramble across a border that already supports enormous amounts of drug and human trafficking. Use your brain, Dave.
My point is that it's not easy to prove regardless of where you find them, unless you have the papers to prove it and even then, you need something more since a single birth certificate won't help much to link that child with that piece of paper.This is why you have a legal system to make sure they are who they say they are.
Quote
If I just suddenly showed up to Norway on a boat with a bunch of women and children, do you think the Norwegian authorities would jail us all together? According to you, I should just tell them I'm "seeking asylum" and then everything is fine. You know that doesn't make any sense, why are you proposing it should?
https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/protection-asylum/protection-asylum-in-norway/
For you, you'd be sent back as you're not from a nation where you can't get help.But assuming you were from a nation like Guatemala: sounds like you'd be kept together unless you were found to be lying.  Why would they separate you?
Also: they wouldn't jail you.   Norwegian jails are for people to change their behavior.  To rehabilitate and reintegrate into society.  Norewgian jail cells are like mini-dorms.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison
So even if they did, it's not a bad spot.
The places they put asylum seekers are basically apartment buildings filled with other families.  I know, I've spoken to enough people who went through the process.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:43:05 PM by Lord Dave »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2883 on: June 19, 2018, 02:55:46 PM »
My point is that it's not easy to prove regardless of where you find them, unless you have the papers to prove it and even then, you need something more since a single birth certificate won't help much to link that child with that piece of paper.This is why you have a legal system to make sure they are who they say they are.

Yet that's exactly my point as well. It isn't easy to prove those children belong to them, therefore they don't have the automatic right to claim authority over them. It's not good enough just to claim a child happens to belong to you.

https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/protection-asylum/protection-asylum-in-norway/
For you, you'd be sent back as you're not from a nation where you can't get help.But assuming you were from a nation like Guatemala: sounds like you'd be kept together unless you were found to be lying.  Why would they separate you?
Also: they wouldn't jail you.   Norwegian jails are for people to change their behavior.  To rehabilitate and reintegrate into society.  Norewgian jail cells are like mini-dorms.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison
So even if they did, it's not a bad spot.
The places they put asylum seekers are basically apartment buildings filled with other families.  I know, I've spoken to enough people who went through the process.

How exactly are they going to tell me I'm not from Guatamala?

The "asylum seekers" you've met are ones that applied to Norway before ever stepping foot in the nation. Norway constantly sends people back that show up unannounced and it certainly doesn't have thousands upon thousands of people pouring in on a daily basis. The very few people they do have showing up, they send back almost immediately.

https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

Record numbers in 2016 alone. No one is showing up at Norway's door, saying "I seek asylum" and then getting magically placed in an amazing apartment. You're confusing Norway's process of legal immigration with the current illegal immigration crisis in the US. Norway is known as the most xenophobic country in Europe and you already know about their very strict immigration policies. The real question is why you want to pretend that it's not the case.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:58:45 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2884 on: June 19, 2018, 04:41:48 PM »
How exactly are they going to tell me I'm not from Guatamala?
Same way the US can tell if someone is from Mexico or Guatamala?  Or Syria vs Iraq?  I don't know but there's probably some method.

Quote
The "asylum seekers" you've met are ones that applied to Norway before ever stepping foot in the nation. Norway constantly sends people back that show up unannounced and it certainly doesn't have thousands upon thousands of people pouring in on a daily basis. The very few people they do have showing up, they send back almost immediately.

https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

Record numbers in 2016 alone. No one is showing up at Norway's door, saying "I seek asylum" and then getting magically placed in an amazing apartment. You're confusing Norway's process of legal immigration with the current illegal immigration crisis in the US. Norway is known as the most xenophobic country in Europe and you already know about their very strict immigration policies. The real question is why you want to pretend that it's not the case.
I'm not sure how you're getting your conclusions.Those numbers aren't just people who cross the border illegally.


For example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35355727
5,500 people who crossed from Russia but had valid Visas from Russia.  Russia is considered safe.  Thus, they were sent back.  ie. Deported.
That was in the early months of 2016, which is the year of your numbers.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/ny-rekord-i-antall-tvangsreturer-1.13319094
Here's another article with a better breakdown.
17% were rejected asylum seekers.
17% were deported because they were already in another nation and thus it's that nation's responsibility to deal with their asylum case.  So if you fled Syria to Russia then after some time went from Russia to Norway, you fall under the Dublin Asylum rules and are sent back to Russia.
66% were expelled due to criminal backgrounds or bans from entering Norway in the first place.

And yes, they don't exactly have an influx of refugees pouring in by the thousands on a daily basis.(they did in 2015)  But it's not exactly easy to take a boat from Syria to Norway.  Or really most nations that are "dangerous" to Norway. 

I'm not sure why you say Norway is the most Xenophobic nation in Europe.  Their immigration laws are tight, yes, but they aren't very big.  The entire population could fit into NYC and the total area of space is about the size of New Mexico.  So they only allow immediate family members of Norwegian citizens. (children, parents, and spouses) so long as you can afford to care for them. 

They are part of the EEA, which means someone from Italy can move to Norway without having to go through any immigration process.
I certanly haven't seen any Xenophobia nor do I get that impression from the refugees I reguarly speak to.
But they do accept a fair amount of refugees a year.https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/5a8e49d721ad456ea8bd698ea2d543ef/immigration-and-immigrants-20152016-complete.pdf

Of the refugees (page 38 in the link above) 25% were rejected in 2015 and 34% were rejected in 2016.  So most of the 30,000+ application seekers were granted asylum/refugee status.
As for the process:

https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/protection-asylum/protection-asylum-in-norway/From their own page: IF you are in Norway or at the border, you can apply for asylum.  You'll be sent to Ankomstsenter for 1-2 days then sent to an asylum reception centre until your case is processed.


If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2885 on: June 19, 2018, 04:55:04 PM »
In America, we take children away from parents that make bad decisions everyday. When someone chooses to break the law they are held accountable, put in jail, and separated from their family. Why do illegal aliens get to be the exception to the rule? Why do they get a free pass?

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2886 on: June 19, 2018, 05:08:29 PM »
In America, we take children away from parents that make bad decisions everyday. When someone chooses to break the law they are held accountable, put in jail, and separated from their family. Why do illegal aliens get to be the exception to the rule? Why do they get a free pass?
While I certainly do not support open borders to anyone with kids,I do think congress should amend the law so that families of illegal immigrants can stay together while their asylum claims are being processed.

The reason why I think there should be an exception is because of empathy. Yes these parents broke the law and they shouldn't have, but many of them are fleeing desperate situations elsewhere. Also, if they've attempted to enter legally only to be turned away, they are left in a less than ideal situation on the Mexican side of the border. Given these circumstances they decide to risk crossing illegally. Many of these are not bad people, they are people trying desperately hard to care for their families. Of course bad people will also be there pretending to be good people and trying to take advantage of the situation. Anyway, that is why I think illegal immigrants should get to be with their families while being processed.

How anyone thinks the solution is to have open borders to anyone crossing accompanied by children is a mystery to me.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2887 on: June 19, 2018, 10:23:24 PM »
Many of these are not bad people, they are people trying desperately hard to care for their families.

What do you mean? Many of them come here to use our public services, get on welfare, work under-the-table jobs, and send their kids to our education system.

That's called theft. Theft makes you a bad person.

Re: Trump
« Reply #2888 on: June 19, 2018, 10:41:12 PM »
What do you mean? Many of them come here to use our public services, get on welfare, work under-the-table jobs, and send their kids to our education system.

sounds like we should open the borders.  then immigrants won't be criminals for using public services, and they can stay with their families.  problem solved.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2889 on: June 19, 2018, 10:54:43 PM »
Many of these are not bad people, they are people trying desperately hard to care for their families.

What do you mean? Many of them come here to use our public services, get on welfare, work under-the-table jobs, and send their kids to our education system.

That's called theft. Theft makes you a bad person.
I guess you completely missed the point of my post. Empathy. 

All of them come here looking for a better life and many of them are hard workers. And some of them are fleeing desperate situations. Do you really feel a father trying to get his family out of a violent situation who crosses the border in desperation is a bad person in the same way that a bank robber is? I'm sure you feel quite good about yourself so let me ask you a question. If you were in a situation where you had to choose between breaking the law and getting killed or abused or watching your family members get killed or abused which would you choose? If you chose obeying the law I think maybe you're the bad person here.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with controlling the border and enforcing immigration law. But I see nothing wrong with making a legal exception that allows illegal immigrants who have chosen to seek asylum to remain as family units. In fact I think that should happen immediately.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2890 on: June 19, 2018, 11:19:05 PM »
Quote from: Boots
I'm sure you feel quite good about yourself so let me ask you a question. If you were in a situation where you had to choose between breaking the law and getting killed or abused or watching your family members get killed or abused which would you choose? If you chose obeying the law I think maybe you're the bad person here.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Boots. If I was in a bad situation I would move somewhere else in the country for my better opportunity. I wouldn't move to Canada illegally to steal from Canadian Taxpayers.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 11:21:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2891 on: June 19, 2018, 11:20:45 PM »
Quote from: Boots
I'm sure you feel quite good about yourself so let me ask you a question. If you were in a situation where you had to choose between breaking the law and getting killed or abused or watching your family members get killed or abused which would you choose? If you chose obeying the law I think maybe you're the bad person here.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Boots. If I was in a bad situation I would move somewhere else in the country for my better opportunity. I wouldn't move to Canada illegally to steal from Canadian Taxpayers.
So if you had to choose between breaking the law and watching your family get abused or killed, what would you choose? That was the question.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2892 on: June 19, 2018, 11:57:21 PM »
So if you had to choose between breaking the law and watching your family get abused or killed, what would you choose? That was the question.

I wouldn't break the law and steal from others if I was in a bad spot. In case of physical abuse I would buy a gun, contact authorities, or move to a safer area in the country. Why is your first reaction to break the law?

Mexico isn't a war-torn hellhole with zero infrastructure or opportunity. I don't know what kind of analogy you are trying to make.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2893 on: June 20, 2018, 12:08:00 AM »
So if you had to choose between breaking the law and watching your family get abused or killed, what would you choose? That was the question.

I wouldn't break the law
I don't believe you. Every man would do whatever it took at that point. And if it is true, that's even worse.

As far as stealing from the US goes, US needs a certain number of immigrants. They offer several legal paths for entry. One of these paths is seeking asylum in the event that you are from a country or area in which it is not safe.  If you went with your family, to a legal port of entry to legally apply for asylum and were rejected because of overload, and thus found yourself in the dangerous area on the Mexican side of border without means to return and no place to return to, do you think you might be tempted to cross the border illegally? And do you think that a man in this position who makes that decision is a bad person and deserves equivalent treatment of a bank robber?

BTW what seems to be your position on this issue is out of line with both the Republicans and Democrats. Perhaps a few White Supremacists and fanatical rednecks might see it your way.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 12:13:35 AM by Boots »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2894 on: June 20, 2018, 12:36:17 AM »
I don't believe you. Every man would do whatever it took at that point. And if it is true, that's even worse.

As far as stealing from the US goes, US needs a certain number of immigrants. They offer several legal paths for entry. One of these paths is seeking asylum in the event that you are from a country or area in which it is not safe.  If you went with your family, to a legal port of entry to legally apply for asylum and were rejected because of overload, and thus found yourself in the dangerous area on the Mexican side of border without means to return and no place to return to, do you think you might be tempted to cross the border illegally? And do you think that a man in this position who makes that decision is a bad person and deserves equivalent treatment of a bank robber?

BTW what seems to be your position on this issue is out of line with both the Republicans and Democrats. Perhaps a few White Supremacists and fanatical rednecks might see it your way.

Do you think that we should simply ignore economic wage stagnation and various other issues regarding nearly unlimited immigration of uneducated workers, simply because it might make you feel bad? While I'm sure you're very busy using a magnifying glass to peer at the rest of the world from your pedestal, it's not as simple as a moral "but isn't it wrong not to help people?"

Do we start treating criminals differently, simply based on their family status? If a single mother commits a murder, do we acquit her for the sake of the child? Obviously these make everyone morally uncomfortable. Surely, children are important, but at some point, we must admit the collective good of the country we're already in is more important than the collective good of those that exist external to it.

The US, as a nation, already takes in more legal immigrants than most of the developed world combined, and yet that isn't enough for many people. "People still need our help!" they'll say. Yes, everyone needs our help. In fact, most of the world is a crime ridden impoverished mess. There are currently billions of people in the world living far below even our lowest standard of poverty. It's impossible, in the strictest sense of the world, for us to help them all. We as a nation can't even help the poor people already living here. By letting these people in, these "asylum seekers", these poor, unskilled hordes of people, you're damning the poor, unskilled people already here to an even worse life.

The only thing these people pouring over the border will do is dilute our working class even further and make the rich stronger than ever before. It's a whole new brand of slavery. Bring in illegal workers, pay them peanuts, threaten them with deportation, all the while telling people it's the morally righteous thing to do because other countries are scary places.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 12:39:16 AM by Rushy »

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2895 on: June 20, 2018, 02:56:25 AM »
I don't believe you. Every man would do whatever it took at that point. And if it is true, that's even worse.

As far as stealing from the US goes, US needs a certain number of immigrants. They offer several legal paths for entry. One of these paths is seeking asylum in the event that you are from a country or area in which it is not safe.  If you went with your family, to a legal port of entry to legally apply for asylum and were rejected because of overload, and thus found yourself in the dangerous area on the Mexican side of border without means to return and no place to return to, do you think you might be tempted to cross the border illegally? And do you think that a man in this position who makes that decision is a bad person and deserves equivalent treatment of a bank robber?

BTW what seems to be your position on this issue is out of line with both the Republicans and Democrats. Perhaps a few White Supremacists and fanatical rednecks might see it your way.

Do you think that we should simply ignore economic wage stagnation and various other issues regarding nearly unlimited immigration of uneducated workers, simply because it might make you feel bad? While I'm sure you're very busy using a magnifying glass to peer at the rest of the world from your pedestal, it's not as simple as a moral "but isn't it wrong not to help people?"

Do we start treating criminals differently, simply based on their family status? If a single mother commits a murder, do we acquit her for the sake of the child? Obviously these make everyone morally uncomfortable. Surely, children are important, but at some point, we must admit the collective good of the country we're already in is more important than the collective good of those that exist external to it.

The US, as a nation, already takes in more legal immigrants than most of the developed world combined, and yet that isn't enough for many people. "People still need our help!" they'll say. Yes, everyone needs our help. In fact, most of the world is a crime ridden impoverished mess. There are currently billions of people in the world living far below even our lowest standard of poverty. It's impossible, in the strictest sense of the world, for us to help them all. We as a nation can't even help the poor people already living here. By letting these people in, these "asylum seekers", these poor, unskilled hordes of people, you're damning the poor, unskilled people already here to an even worse life.

The only thing these people pouring over the border will do is dilute our working class even further and make the rich stronger than ever before. It's a whole new brand of slavery. Bring in illegal workers, pay them peanuts, threaten them with deportation, all the while telling people it's the morally righteous thing to do because other countries are scary places.
I am in full support of immigration laws being enforced and illegal immigrants being charged. Furthermore, I think it is the right and responsibility of the US government to develop criteria outlining what kind of, and how many immigrants it will accept.

The only thing I was arguing for, is that while illegal immigrants are waiting for their asylum claims to be processed they should be allowed to remain with their children. Currently that is forbidden by law. I think the law should be changed.

Republicans are proposing exactly that, but it doesn't look like it will pass due to opposition from the Democrats. The same Democrats who claim to be so very concerned about families being separated! Clearly they're lying about what their concern really is. I believe their real concern is with making Trump and the Republicans look bad and despite all their hyperbole to the contrary, they are perfectly willing to use the kids as a means to that end. Shameful!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:02:15 AM by Boots »
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2896 on: June 20, 2018, 04:30:10 AM »
The reason why we let illegal immigrants stay with their families has nothing to do with some arbitrary gesture of magnanimity that we logically could extend to other criminals but choose not to for moral reasons. It's because the end goal of dealing with an illegal immigrant is to deport them, which has nothing to do with the justice system. There's no benefit to spending the time and money to prosecute illegal immigrants for illegal entry and have them serve their short stints in jail, only to then deport them. This policy of prosecuting illegal immigrants was put into place with the express intention of separating kids from their parents. It's not an unintended consequence; it's the goal. And if this were being done with the idea behind it being to deter illegal immigration - don't come here illegally or you could lose your kids! - it would be bad enough, but it isn't. This is a bargaining chip to be used against Congress - give me what I want or I'll continue to be the biggest asshole in the world to vulnerable families! How anybody could defend that is beyond me.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2897 on: June 20, 2018, 04:50:45 AM »
The reason why we let illegal immigrants stay with their families has nothing to do with some arbitrary gesture of magnanimity that we logically could extend to other criminals but choose not to for moral reasons. It's because the end goal of dealing with an illegal immigrant is to deport them, which has nothing to do with the justice system. There's no benefit to spending the time and money to prosecute illegal immigrants for illegal entry and have them serve their short stints in jail, only to then deport them. This policy of prosecuting illegal immigrants was put into place with the express intention of separating kids from their parents. It's not an unintended consequence; it's the goal. And if this were being done with the idea behind it being to deter illegal immigration - don't come here illegally or you could lose your kids! - it would be bad enough, but it isn't. This is a bargaining chip to be used against Congress - give me what I want or I'll continue to be the biggest asshole in the world to vulnerable families! How anybody could defend that is beyond me.

Illegal immigrants who choose to return to their country are reunited with their families in short order. Also, families who apply for asylum at legal ports of entry do not get separated. The only families who are being separated for any length of time are those who crossed the border illegally, but still choose to apply for asylum once caught. By law (Flores) these children cannot be held in detention with their parents while their parents asylum claim is being processed.

This could all be solved by a simple act of congress if the Democrats would agree. How anybody could defend not agreeing to this simple amendment is beyond me.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 04:52:53 AM by Boots »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2898 on: June 20, 2018, 06:12:01 AM »
This is literally the first time Illegals have crossed the border with children and got caught. 


Seriously, this zero tollerance policy is shit.  It hasn't been an issue beforebut now it is. 




Also boots: I believe the dems are fighting the bill because its less a "Here is a quick fix" and more of a "Well, lets pile in our immigration law wish list in here while we have such a hot button issue."


The Republicans (and probably dems) are playing politics.  Using this humanitarian issue to get their immigration policies in place and anyone who won't vote for it is evil because families.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2899 on: June 20, 2018, 07:48:11 AM »
This is literally the first time Illegals have crossed the border with children and got caught. 


Seriously, this zero tollerance policy is shit.  It hasn't been an issue beforebut now it is. 




Also boots: I believe the dems are fighting the bill because its less a "Here is a quick fix" and more of a "Well, lets pile in our immigration law wish list in here while we have such a hot button issue."


The Republicans (and probably dems) are playing politics.  Using this humanitarian issue to get their immigration policies in place and anyone who won't vote for it is evil because families.
Are you saying the Dems are willing to see families split up just so they don't have to accept some immigration law they don't like?!!!! What about the children?!!!! Animals I tell you! Animals!

This is the first time Illegals have crossed the border with children and been charged. Why make a law and then have a policy to not enforce it? Rather change the law!

I believe the Republicans have or are planning to introduce a fairly specific bill but I would have to look into that more. But the Dems are also free to make a proposal as narrow as they want. Why haven't they? Because this issue is playing well for them politically. Finding a congressional solution is not in their best interest politically.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 09:01:46 AM by Boots »
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