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Offline Particle Person

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NSFW material
« on: June 04, 2015, 11:36:58 PM »
An image depicting cartoon breasts was recently removed by an administrator who cited rule 7 as justification.

Quote
7. Do not post NSFW material (applies in all fora)

Fair enough, the image could have easily been considered NSFW. However, this doesn't even come close to being applied consistently. We have at least one thread in CN that is full of NSFW material (Post What You'd Hit).

I'm also confused by the phrasing of the rule's description, as it seems to contradict the rule itself. Specifically, this part: "Do not post material which is overly pornographic[...]". The use of the word "overly" implies that there is some form of pornography that is acceptable, yet I'm struggling to think of anything much tamer than a non-sexual cartoon depiction of breasts, which is what was removed.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:12:49 AM by Parsifal »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Inconsistent Moderation
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 11:45:48 PM »
I haven't personally seen any NSFW material in "Post What You'd Hit", but if they are there, then report them, and I will remove them as needed.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Inconsistent Moderation
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 11:49:38 PM »
I won't do that, because I disagree with the idea that we should enforce a zero-tolerance policy regarding NSFW stuff.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Inconsistent Moderation
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 11:52:32 PM »
Well if you can't give me evidence that we are doing any "inconsistent moderation" then I am going to lock the thread. You can start a separate thread titled "I don't agree with rule 7."

Offline Blanko

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Re: Inconsistent Moderation
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 11:54:27 PM »
I don't see what is inconsistent about removing material depicting nudity and not removing material not depicting nudity.

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Offline Particle Person

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I don't like rule 7
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 11:59:10 PM »
Quote from: Blanko
I don't see what is inconsistent about removing material depicting nudity and not removing material not depicting nudity.

Nowhere in the rule or it's description is the word "nudity" used.

Also, is there actually any benefit to locking an S&C thread so quickly after its creation, apart from making the administration's job easier? I was simply told that my concern was baseless, and not given the chance to respond.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:03:55 AM by Particle Person »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 12:07:01 AM »
I locked the thread because it felt like trolling. When asking someone to provide evidence of something and their answer is that they don't believe in providing evidence, you have to admit that the thread is clearly going to go nowhere.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 12:16:30 AM »
I locked the thread because it felt like trolling.

It probably feels that way because I've conditioned you to think that everything I say is trolling. However, in this case, I am a real user with a real complaint.

Quote from: Rushy
When asking someone to provide evidence of something and their answer is that they don't believe in providing evidence, you have to admit that the thread is clearly going to go nowhere.

I specifically told you why I didn't want to provide evidence. I don't want any of the images to be removed. That's like, the whole point I'm making. Why would I help you enforce a rule that I'm trying to have changed? But, alright, if it's for some reason neccessary to do this to prevent this thread from being locked, here:

http://i.imgur.com/tNk93FZ.jpg

That image, which is pretty clearly NSFW, was posted somewhere in that thread. You can find it if you want to. There are other examples.

Also, it just occurred to me that a "concern" is pretty useless without its friend, the "suggestion", so mine is as follows: I think a small revision should be made to rule 7, so that it says something to the effect of "Do not post excessively graphic or obscene material".
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:24:01 AM by Particle Person »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 12:24:38 AM »
The people in that image appear to be wearing clothes.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 12:26:02 AM »
Yes, they appear to be, but they aren't. They aren't wearing tops, at least. They have stickers on their nips, but the rest is bodypaint.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 12:27:45 AM »
Yes, they appear to be, but they aren't. They aren't wearing tops, at least. They have stickers on their nips, but the rest is bodypaint.

Placing stickers over the nipples means it is no longer nudity. This is backed by numerous public indecency cases. The image Blanko removed very clearly had nipples exposed.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 12:34:25 AM »
Placing stickers over the nipples means it is no longer nudity.

Okay, so this image contains no nudity and is therefore SFW. Neat!

no

« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:35:41 AM by Blanko »
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Offline Blanko

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 12:38:11 AM »
It seems all you want to do is test the boundaries of our rules, and this is not the place for it. Locked.

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Offline xasop

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 09:35:51 AM »
To clarify, this thread was locked because Particle Person reposted the image here in S&C. PP, please don't do that.

However, I would like to reopen the discussion because I think PP raises a good point. I didn't see anything wrong with the image mister bickles posted (beyond being off-topic in PR&S, which is why I split it to AR). For anyone who didn't see it, it included a cartoon depiction of a woman not wearing a shirt, in which nipples were visible (which appears to be the point of contention).

Now, it might just be that my workplace takes a somewhat lax attitude to these things, but I wouldn't have considered that to be NSFW. I do think we need to revise this rule, and while my preference would be to relax the stipulation so that some amount of tasteful nudity is permitted (at least in CN and AR), I'm open to alternative suggestions if most people would rather not see such things here. One option would be to have a flag that can be set on a per-thread basis which indicates that it may contain NSFW material, and that anyone who does not want to view it should stay away.

So, what level of nudity do people want to accept, and how can we better word this rule?
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Offline JRowe

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 11:01:50 AM »
If we're going to go the route of flagging nudity (perhaps with a specific thread icon?), there doesn't seem to be any reason to not allow pretty much everything. The only way you'd see it would be if you went into a thread knowing it was there.
Maybe just stop at anything short of actual porn (no full-frontal etc).
(Or if you want to go the whole hog, have various icon markers with varying levels of severity, though that might be overkill).
Just have "No nudity/overt sexuality/NSFW material of any kind unless allowed by thread icon," or something, maybe.

I have to agree with PP though: NSFW is not just nudity. Not Safe For Work is just what it sounds like; something you don't want on your computer at the workplace. That certainly contains nudity, but is way more than just that. If you can see enough of someone to tell they've got stickers over their nipples, that's definitely something not to have at work. Ditto for bikinis, latex, any number of things which are not nudity, but are clearly sexual (or meant in a sexual context).
While it varies workplace to workplace, the most accepting workplaces shouldn't be used as the standard.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2015, 12:58:31 PM »
To clarify, this thread was locked because Particle Person reposted the image here in S&C. PP, please don't do that.

Incorrect. The thread was locked because PP posted an actual nude in which he had replaced the woman's nipples with black dots. It was a very clear and conscious breach of rules on his part, and even if it was on the verge of rule breaking it had no place in S&C. That to me was indication that PP's only goal in this discussion is to cause trouble and as such I saw no reason to continue it.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2015, 01:07:52 PM »
Unfortunately for many of us, we work in the USA and the bar for NSFW is set pretty high.  Loosening the restrictions on NSFW material is a tricky proposition and perhaps a slippery slope. 

It's tricky because what is or isn't NSFW would differ between each mod; paraphrased from Potter Stewart's famous quote about pornography, "I cannot define it, but I know it when I see it."  Stewart couldn't define the line between what is and what isn't acceptable no more than we could if we loosened up on the rule.  Whats more, Stewart's bar for what is or isn't pornography (on in this case, NSFW) will undoubtedly differ from person to person.  I believe that this would lead to an increase of threads like this where a user argues for the "unfair" removal of their content and be able to cite other grey-area content.

It's perhaps a slippery slope because loosening the restrictions will open up people trying to find the place where the bar sits.  As the change seems to be nebulously defined, who knows where it would end? 

I also think that flagging threads is somewhat problematic.  I can't imagine a self-regulating system being practical.  Mods would assuredly have to step in from time to time and apply the appropriate flags.  Which brings us back to mods who work in places with harsher NSFW policies or people who click the thread before it's properly flagged.  Problematic at best in my opinion.

I suppose, what really strikes me about this issue, is asking if the potential loss of actively is worth being able to post some semi-pornographic material from time to time.  All that being said, I'm completely fine with a change to rules for AR and/or CN, but I for one will not be able to effectively participate (no real loss in that regard) or moderate those threads during work hours when I can't access my phone. 

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2015, 01:10:39 PM »
That to me was indication that PP's only goal in this discussion is to cause trouble and as such I saw no reason to continue it.

I made five on-topic posts before "causing trouble", so no, clearly that was not my only goal. That said, I promise not to post any more troubling images. 
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Offline markjo

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Re: I don't like rule 7
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2015, 01:11:00 PM »
Yes, they appear to be, but they aren't. They aren't wearing tops, at least. They have stickers on their nips, but the rest is bodypaint.

Placing stickers over the nipples means it is no longer nudity. This is backed by numerous public indecency cases. The image Blanko removed very clearly had nipples exposed.

Public mere nudity (non-sexual nudity) is also backed by numerous public indecency cases.  Who's standards do you suggest we use?  Also, profanity can be considered NSFW.  Does this mean that F-bombs should be censored?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NSFW material
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2015, 02:07:10 PM »
That to me was indication that PP's only goal in this discussion is to cause trouble and as such I saw no reason to continue it.
But locking the thread prevents any others who might be willing to contribute from doing so. We shouldn't kill a topic just because the member who started it does a no-no.

Anyway: Personally, I do not think we can reasonably adhere to any workplace standards, and I don't think we should try. A lot of the content on this site can easily be argued to be NSFW. Putting imagery aside for a moment, many discussion here touch on social and political issues, and we've always embraced an atmosphere of not suppressing people's views, even when they border on extremism. A fair amount of people could probably be fired based on their postings here.

I would suggest establishing an internal standard for what's allowable and what isn't. I think most would agree that we don't want FES outright turning into a porn and gore board, we already have the chans for that. However, we should do so only for the viewing pleasure of our members, and not to protect someone who chooses to browse FES while at work or school. People should then make their own judgement about whether or not they consider the forum to be safe for their workplace.

I also think that there's no reason for the standard to be uniform across all boards. It could be much more lenient in CN than the upper fora.
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