[Tom Bishop]

IT IS ALWAYS SOLAR NOON SOMEWHERE. This has nothing to do with sidereal anything.

It is always Solar Noon somewhere. You are correct. I corrected that post on how I worded that.

Start the 24 hour clock on the September Equinox point where it is 12PM Solar Noon at the point of the Equinox and it will end on ~6PM after one Solar Year. Why would it not stop at 12PM if you are in the same position on the earth's orbit around the sun, as per the diagrams?

Thanks for the correction.

As to your question, imagine you have a music box in your car with a ballerina on top that is spinning at a constant rate. You then drive around the block at a constant speed. Which way the ballerina is facing when you pass your house is not necessarily the same each time, unless you plan your speed very carefully.

If you got close to your house and then stopped when the ballerina was facing a certain way, you might be just short or just past your house.

The ballerina in your car doesn't know how fast you are driving and just keeps spinning.

If a laser from your house was hitting the ballerina in the face at Point A on the circular path, and you KNOW that the ballerina will turn around 365.24 times after whatever method of rotating around your house, and then if the laser hits it in the face again when it returns to point A, you have a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[Bobby Shafto]

At the point of September Equinox the sun is illuminating half of the earth.

Solar Time is 24 Hours. One Solar Day is 24 Hours.

After 365.24 Solar Days the earth has returned to the starting point on the earth's orbit around the sun, yet illuminated differently. 24 Hour Solar Clock is misaligned. Solar Noon is no longer at 12PM in Solar Time.

Can't be explained by the 20 minute Sidreal Year difference.

Big Problem.

Put this 20-minute sidereal year difference out of your head. That's not where the answer lies.

Now look at the statement you made that I bolded.

It's no longer solar noon at the point of equinox from the previous solar year. Why? Because that came earlier than the new equinox. That solar noon on that meridian, and that point on the equator, came 365 solar days after the previous one.

But the solar year is ~6 hours longer than 365 solar days.

The new equinox is occurring at a new meridian where it's solar noon, on a point on the equator about a quarter of a turn west from the previous year's point.

The 24 hour solar clock is "misaligned" from the 365.24 solar day solar year. I guess, yes, though I think "misaligned" sounds like you think it shouldn't be this way. But it is, so instead of "misaligned," I'd call it aligned 365.24 solar days to 1 solar year. There's no reason why it has to be 365:1. It's not a problem. It's just a different ratio. One that involves a fraction of the solar day instead of a whole number.

I've yet to understand why that's an issue for you.

[Tom Bishop]

Bobby. The earth is like the ballerina in the analogy above. The laser is hitting it in the face again when you know that it needs to rotate 356.24 times.

[Macarios]

That's not the answer to the question. That is the question I am asking. The Solar Day and the Solar Year that is based on the Equinox do not match up.

And I answered that question few times in this thread already.

Solar day is based on Earth's rotation towards Sun.
Calendar year is based on solar days.
We, humans count it for our needs.

Tropical year is not based on solar days.
Tropical year is based on Earth's orbital events and it is not calendar year.

EDIT:
I already placed analogy with propeller of the plane model revolving pole.
We count our calendar year by counting "rotations of the propeller" (days), and trying to adjust "counted sets of rotations" (calendar year) as close as possible to "number of revolutions" (tropical year).

I have shown several quotes in this thread which say that there are 365.24 Solar Days in a Solar Year.

I have also shown with the Recap post that the Solar Day must be connected to the Solar Year.

You have not yet provided the + ~6 hour solution.

A Sidrael Year is only different by the Solar Year by 20 minutes, and is not a solution. Why doesn't the Solar Day fit into the Solar Year?

And it confirms that (Solar) Tropical year is not based on number of days but on orbital events (position).
What is based on days is Calendar year.

I already asked you "Were you expecting to synchronize rotation and revolution?"

After 365 rotations towards Sun (Calendar year), Earth simply haven't yet reached exact point where Sun apparently crosses Equator (Tropical year).
When Sun crosses Equator Earth will simply have some other meridian facing Sun.

EDIT:
Do you describe difference between Calendar year and Tropical year in some other way?

[Stagiri]

Bobby. The earth is like the ballerina in the analogy above. The laser is hitting it in the face again when you know that it needs to rotate 356.24 times.

Except that the Earth is not a ballerina. The laser wouldn't hit the same place on the Earth again, solar noon is at a different place after 365,24 rotations. Or do you have data that would prove me wrong?

[Bobby Shafto]

Bobby. The earth is like the ballerina in the analogy above. The laser is hitting it in the face again when you know that it needs to rotate 356.24 times.

No. The earth is like the ballerina and the laser is hitting her in the ear after an additional 0.24 turn.

You are insisting on that 365.00 solar days must = 1 solar year and if it's not, we've got a problem.

Looking at your analogy...

...imagine you have a music box in your car with a ballerina on top that is spinning at a constant rate. You then drive around the block at a constant speed. Which way the ballerina is facing when you pass your house is not necessarily the same each time, unless you plan your speed very carefully.

If you got close to your house and then stopped when the ballerina was facing a certain way, you might be just short or just past your house.

The ballerina in your car doesn't know how fast you are driving and just keeps spinning.

If a laser from your house was hitting the ballerina in the face at Point A on the circular path, and you KNOW that the ballerina will turn around 365.24 times after whatever method of rotating around your house, and then if the laser hits it in the face again when it returns to point A, you have a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Yeah. That would raise a discrepancy. It would mean you have a whole number ratio of ballerina spin and orbit around the block (365:1), and the extra 0.24 amount of spin that you thought you knew was true would be wrong.

But that's not the case with the earth's solar day rotation (ballerina spinning) and earth's solar year orbiting (drive around the block). The laser from the house DOESN'T hit the ballerina's face again at Point A. It happens 0.24 of a spin later, on her ear.  That's the analogy to what's happening on earth. The equinox moves west a quarter of an earth's turn, just like we'd expect the laser to hit the ballerina's side of the head and not her face if we know the ballerina will turn around 365.24 and not 365.00 times during the one trip around the block.

[Tom Bishop]

I already asked you "Were you expecting to synchronize rotation and revolution?"

The earth is in the same position on the orbit from where it started and  24 Hour Solar Time needs to have the sun at 12 Noon. There does need to be synchronization.

 

After 365 rotations towards Sun (calendar year), Earth simply didn't yet reached exact point where Sun apparently crosses Equator (Tropical year).
When Sun crosses Equator Earth will simply have some other meridian facing Sun.

EDIT:
Do you describe difference between Calendar year and Tropical year in some other way?

Refer to the analogy from a little earlier. The laser is hitting the ballerina in the face after the circuit around the house when the ballerina has rotated 365.24 times.

Replace ballerina with the 24 hour Solar Clock and you will see the issue.

[douglips]

IT IS ALWAYS SOLAR NOON SOMEWHERE. This has nothing to do with sidereal anything.

It is always Solar Noon somewhere. You are correct. I corrected that post on how I worded that.

Start the 24 hour clock on the September Equinox point where it is 12PM Solar Noon at the point of the Equinox and it will end on ~6PM after one Solar Year. Why would it not stop at 12PM if you are in the same position on the earth's orbit around the sun, as per the diagrams?

Thanks for the correction.

As to your question, imagine you have a music box in your car with a ballerina on top that is spinning at a constant rate. You then drive around the block at a constant speed. Which way the ballerina is facing when you pass your house is not necessarily the same each time, unless you plan your speed very carefully.

If you got close to your house and then stopped when the ballerina was facing a certain way, you might be just short or just past your house.

The ballerina in your car doesn't know how fast you are driving and just keeps spinning.

If a laser from your house was hitting the ballerina in the face at Point A on the circular path, and you KNOW that the ballerina will turn around 365.24 times after whatever method of rotating around your house, and then if the laser hits it in the face again when it returns to point A, you have a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?

The laser doesn't hit the ballerina in the face after 365.24 rotations. It his the ballerina in the face .24 rotations sooner, and at point A it hits the ballerina in the ear or something.

You are right, If the laser were coming from a different direction that would be a problem. It's not, and it isn't coming from a different direction in the Earth case either.

The ballerina gets hit in the face after 365 rotations, gets hit in the ear at 365.24 rotations at point A, and gets hit in the face again after point A at 366 rotations.

[Tom Bishop]

Bobby. The earth is like the ballerina in the analogy above. The laser is hitting it in the face again when you know that it needs to rotate 356.24 times.

No. The earth is like the ballerina and the laser is hitting her in the ear after an additional 0.24 turn.

You are insisting on that 365.00 solar days must = 1 solar year and if it's not, we've got a problem.

Looking at your analogy...

...imagine you have a music box in your car with a ballerina on top that is spinning at a constant rate. You then drive around the block at a constant speed. Which way the ballerina is facing when you pass your house is not necessarily the same each time, unless you plan your speed very carefully.

If you got close to your house and then stopped when the ballerina was facing a certain way, you might be just short or just past your house.

The ballerina in your car doesn't know how fast you are driving and just keeps spinning.

If a laser from your house was hitting the ballerina in the face at Point A on the circular path, and you KNOW that the ballerina will turn around 365.24 times after whatever method of rotating around your house, and then if the laser hits it in the face again when it returns to point A, you have a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Yeah. That would raise a discrepancy. It would mean you have a whole number ratio of ballerina spin and orbit around the block (365:1), and the extra 0.24 amount of spin that you thought you knew was true would be wrong.

But that's not the case with the earth's solar day rotation (ballerina spinning) and earth's solar year orbiting (drive around the block). The laser from the house DOESN'T hit the ballerina's face again at Point A. It happens 0.24 of a spin later, on her ear.  That's the analogy to what's happening on earth. The equinox moves west a quarter of an earth's turn, just like we'd expect the laser to hit the ballerina's side of the head and not her face if we know the ballerina will turn around 365.24 and not 365.00 times during the one trip around the block.

Provide a source for this claim that "the equator moves".

[Bobby Shafto]

If you believe 1 solar year = 365 solar day, but the equinox occurs 365.24 solar days later, then you've got a problem to resolve. (your premise)
If you believe 1 solar year = 365.24 solar days, but the equinox occurs 365.00 solar days later, then you've got a problem to resolve. (your analogy)

But...
If we say 1 solar year = 356.24 solar days and the equinox does, in fact, occur 365.24 solar days later, we've got a good match.

You don't seem to like it because of that 0.24 of a solar day 'extra time,' claiming it doesn't match. Doesn't match with what? 365 solar days. Why does it have to match with that? It matches with 365.24.

[Tom Bishop]

The ballerina gets hit in the face after 365 rotations, gets hit in the ear at 365.24 rotations at point A, and gets hit in the face again after point A at 366 rotations.

I'm glad you agree that either Solar Time or the Solar Year are wrong.

[Macarios]

I already asked you "Were you expecting to synchronize rotation and revolution?"

The earth is in the same position on the orbit from where it started and  24 Hour Solar Time needs to have the sun at 12 Noon. There does need to be synchronization.

Earth is NOT in the same position, that's where Calendar year and Tropical year differ.
After 365 rotations Earth is 0.24 degrees earlier than full Tropical revolution.

After 365 rotations towards Sun (calendar year), Earth simply didn't yet reached exact point where Sun apparently crosses Equator (Tropical year).
When Sun crosses Equator Earth will simply have some other meridian facing Sun.

EDIT:
Do you describe difference between Calendar year and Tropical year in some other way?

Refer to the analogy from a little earlier. The laser is hitting the ballerina in the face after the circuit around the house when the ballerina has rotated 365.24 times.

Replace ballerina with the 24 hour Solar Clock and you will see the issue.

The ballerina didn't finish the full circle around the house after whole number of 365 rotations. That's why she has additionla 0.242 rotations in the remaining 1/4 of a foot.

[Bobby Shafto]

...The equinox moves...

Provide a source for this claim that "the equator moves".

I'll assume this snark was just a mistake in reading what I wrote.

[douglips]

The ballerina gets hit in the face after 365 rotations, gets hit in the ear at 365.24 rotations at point A, and gets hit in the face again after point A at 366 rotations.

I'm glad you agree that either Solar Time or the Solar Year are wrong.

I don't see how you got there from what I said.

You are the one who insists that the ballerina gets hit in the face somehow after a non integer number of rotations. That is not what happens.

[Bobby Shafto]

The ballerina gets hit in the face after 365 rotations, gets hit in the ear at 365.24 rotations at point A, and gets hit in the face again after point A at 366 rotations.

I'm glad you agree that either Solar Time or the Solar Year are wrong.

Ballerina's 365 rotations : Earth's 365 solar days
Ballerina getting hit on ear by laser after 365.24 rotations : Earth's equinox after 365.24 solar days (1 solar year)

There's nothing wrong. It's only wrong if the laser DOES hit the ballerina's face (1 solar year is really an even 365 days) while we keep insisting a solar year is 365.24. But it's not. The laser hits the ballerina's ear and equinox occurs on the earth a quarter of a world away from where it did the previous equivalent equinox.

It's really only you that's stuck on the laser hitting the ballerina's face and believing that 1 solar year must be equal to 365 solar days. You see it as wrong because you have an unbending, incorrect premise that 1 solar year has to equal 365 solar days.

[AATW]

At the point of September Equinox the sun is illuminating half of the earth.

Solar Time is 24 Hours. One Solar Day is 24 Hours.

After 365.24 Solar Days the earth has returned to the starting point on the earth's orbit around the sun, yet illuminated differently.

Yes. Because of the .24. 365.24 is a count of the number of times the earth has rotated. That's what a day is.
So the earth is in the same place but it isn't in the same orientation, it has done 365 complete rotations and then .24 of another.
Which is about a quarter. And what's a quarter of a 24 hour day? 6! There's your 6 hours.

Hooray! I've solved another mystery of the univers.

[Edgar Alan Hoe]

This is getting to be genuinely funny now.

Seeing us all try dozens of ways to explain the same thing to Tom over and over again, while Tom finds ever more creative ways to sidestep those explanations and keep the debate going.

At this point it is so clear that Tom is yanking our collective chain that I'm now more interested in why people are still trying to explain this to him?

He already knows. Anyone past the 5th grade would have understood by now, and clearly Tom is not stupid.

[AATW]

He already knows. Anyone past the 5th grade would have understood by now, and clearly Tom is not stupid.

You say that...he thinks that shadows change angle because of perspective and that spectroscopy is looking at something and thinking "ooh, that's a bit red".
There are a load of things he doesn't seem to understand but thinks he understands.

But...yeah, maybe he does understand and is having fun. Which is fine, other people will see the arguments for what they are.

[Edgar Alan Hoe]

He already knows. Anyone past the 5th grade would have understood by now, and clearly Tom is not stupid.

You say that...he thinks that shadows change angle because of perspective and that spectroscopy is looking at something and thinking "ooh, that's a bit red".
There are a load of things he doesn't seem to understand but thinks he understands.

But...yeah, maybe he does understand and is having fun. Which is fine, other people will see the arguments for what they are.

Other people will also see the debate as some kind of validation for his nonsense assertion.

Isn't there a risk that debating nonsense makes everyone a little dumber.

[Stagiri]

I already asked you "Were you expecting to synchronize rotation and revolution?"

The earth is in the same position on the orbit from where it started and  24 Hour Solar Time needs to have the sun at 12 Noon. There does need to be synchronization.

 

After 365 rotations towards Sun (calendar year), Earth simply didn't yet reached exact point where Sun apparently crosses Equator (Tropical year).
When Sun crosses Equator Earth will simply have some other meridian facing Sun.

EDIT:
Do you describe difference between Calendar year and Tropical year in some other way?

Refer to the analogy from a little earlier. The laser is hitting the ballerina in the face after the circuit around the house when the ballerina has rotated 365.24 times.

Replace ballerina with the 24 hour Solar Clock and you will see the issue.

Do you have any empirical evidence for that?