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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1860 on: November 30, 2016, 06:23:40 PM »
...  and personally i'm on the side of 'let's reserve our criticisms for policy proposals, not personality traits and tweets.'  not that i follow my own advice all the time, but i agree with the principle.

This, to me, is dangerous.  Those tweets ARE him.  His personality.  His words.  When he talks to other law makers behind closed doors, those tweets are the closest we'll ever get to what he says.

Asking us to ignore "the man" and just follow "the policy" is asking us to ignore a big part of him.  I mean, it's important that someone can do the job, but if they're an asshole, it's not going to make it easier for anyone else.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1861 on: December 01, 2016, 03:48:29 AM »
...  and personally i'm on the side of 'let's reserve our criticisms for policy proposals, not personality traits and tweets.'  not that i follow my own advice all the time, but i agree with the principle.

This, to me, is dangerous.  Those tweets ARE him.  His personality.  His words.  When he talks to other law makers behind closed doors, those tweets are the closest we'll ever get to what he says.

Asking us to ignore "the man" and just follow "the policy" is asking us to ignore a big part of him.  I mean, it's important that someone can do the job, but if they're an asshole, it's not going to make it easier for anyone else.

i can see what you mean, and i don't really disagree.  probably my number one personal dissatisfaction with trump is that i think he's temperamentally unsuited to the position, and i think that's a fair criticism of anyone seeking that office.  the sort of thing i had in mind was the scale of 'preemptive' criticism of trump's nominees so far.  i think it's fair to kinda hold back until the full lineup is presented and they actually start making tangible policy recommendations. 

my wording was terrible since i said personality traits and tweets, but i'll defend that by saying that i think the left (and i'm left-of-center myself) could gain some credibility by just backing off the reins a bit, even when it comes to trump's personality and tweets and shit.  let's pick our battles more selectively.  i wanna be the party of policy.

i do admit, though, that i have at least one foot in the 'it doesn't matter if he's good at the job or not' camp.  i want him to be good at the job for sure, don't get me wrong; but, i don't have any kudos to give after the campaign he ran.  i don't think complete disregard for the truth should be rewarded with the highest office we have.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 03:50:00 AM by garygreen »
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1862 on: December 01, 2016, 05:03:16 AM »
Dave has somewhat covered my thoughts, but to be clear, I'm not worried that Trump is really going to outlaw flag-burning or strip citizenship from people who do it; I'm worried that this kind of ignorant shitposting from the president is embarrassing for the country, as well as what it seems to show about his personality and temperament.  It's like he just shoots these tweets off the moment he thinks of them.  He doesn't take the time to consider his actions, maybe look over his words, reflect on what the consequences might be - no, he has to go wherever his id drags him.

(Also, flag-burning is another excellent example of what conservatives rather than liberals are traditionally "triggered" by and/or want to prohibit.  Of course, you don't see many articles from the mainstream media criticizing the frailty of the modern conservative, because the narrative is that conservatives are strong, stoic, and masculine, while liberals are weak, whiny, and feminine.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 12:31:28 AM by George »

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1863 on: December 01, 2016, 10:37:47 PM »
It's like he just shoots these tweets off the moment he thinks of them.  He doesn't take the time to consider  his actions, maybe look over his words
That's precisely what he does. That's precisely what a personal Twitter account is meant for. If you don't like Twitter, perhaps you just shouldn't use it?

reflect on what the consequences might be
>twitter
>tweets
>consequences

Fucking lol. The only possible "consequences" of personal tweets is that a bunch of butthurt liberals might try to get the owner of the account fired. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what's happening, just with zero success.

Of course, you don't see many articles from the mainstream media criticizing the frailty of the modern conservative, because the narrative is that conservatives are strong, stoic, and masculine, while liberals are weak, whiny, and feminine.
Saddam, am I really going to have to introduce you to left wing media? The "uh oh conservatives are the reaaaal triggered snowflakes" meme is so old and tired, you can't possibly believe that MSM are ignoring it.

I mean, this really isn't that hard.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/05/fragile-conservatives-upset-a-woman-blocked-them.html
http://www.salon.com/2016/07/08/tv_as_a_conservative_safe_space_fragile_viewers_cant_handle_being_challenged_by_their_entertainment/
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/michelle-obama-makes-fragile-white-conservatives-lose-their-minds-just-by-saying-slavery
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 10:48:13 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1864 on: December 02, 2016, 02:32:51 AM »
That's precisely what he does. That's precisely what a personal Twitter account is meant for. If you don't like Twitter, perhaps you just shouldn't use it?

Twitter accounts aren't "meant" for anything beyond expressing a message less than 140 characters long at a time.  There are a variety of things that people use them for, and Trump uses his for stirring up controversy, flexing his e-penis, and venting when he's angry.

Quote
>twitter
>tweets
>consequences

Fucking lol. The only possible "consequences" of personal tweets is that a bunch of butthurt liberals might try to get the owner of the account fired. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what's happening, just with zero success.

I don't know how you could possibly argue something like this after the election we just witnessed.  Trump's tweets have already had major consequences, both positive and negative.  He probably would have lost the election if not for Twitter.  Don't you remember the shitstorm about him retweeting posts from white nationalists, like the "Most Corrupt Candidate Ever!" picture?  Or how he's been hammered for continuing to make pro-birther tweets years after he supposedly "ended" the issue by getting Obama to release his long-form birth certificate?  Or the hilarity that ensued when Hillary began calling attention to Trump's friendliness with people tweeting Pepe memes?   Even one tweet he made years ago about global warming being a Chinese hoax formed Hillary's main argument against him on that issue.  As far as Trump's administration goes, the consequences I expect we're going to see play out are how heavily he's strained his relationship with top Republicans.

Quote
Saddam, am I really going to have to introduce you to left wing media? The "uh oh conservatives are the reaaaal triggered snowflakes" meme is so old and tired, you can't possibly believe that MSM are ignoring it.

I mean, this really isn't that hard.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/05/fragile-conservatives-upset-a-woman-blocked-them.html
http://www.salon.com/2016/07/08/tv_as_a_conservative_safe_space_fragile_viewers_cant_handle_being_challenged_by_their_entertainment/
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/michelle-obama-makes-fragile-white-conservatives-lose-their-minds-just-by-saying-slavery

When I talked about the mainstream media, I had meant reasonably moderate newspapers, like the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc., rather than openly left-wing sources.  However, after further research, I've discovered that those moderate newspapers aren't nearly as unanimously pitted against the whiny liberals and their safe spaces as I had thought.  Indeed, there are just many articles from them defending such liberals and their ideas as there are articles criticizing them.  So I'll retract my complaint about this being the mainstream narrative, as that doesn't appear to be the case.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1865 on: December 02, 2016, 05:30:30 AM »
>twitter
>tweets
>consequences

Fucking lol. The only possible "consequences" of personal tweets is that a bunch of butthurt liberals might try to get the owner of the account fired. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what's happening, just with zero success.
Donald Trump is influential.  His words, even tweets, are read by millions and millions take those words at face value.  To claim tweets have no consequences for someone like Trump is just absolutely wrong.  His tweets make national news, on all sides.  They are no different than if any celebrety or political figure went on national TV and said those things.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1866 on: December 02, 2016, 12:30:51 PM »
They are no different than if any celebrety or political figure went on national TV Twitter and said those things.
[ftfy: Twitter is not TV. One carries an expectation of content and quality control, the other does the opposite. But otherwise:]

Precisely! When Tila Tequila or Kanye West get on Twitter and say retarded shit, a few news outlets will report on it, a few people (usually on the left, because most moral busybodies tend to align themselves with the left) will get outraged, and then... nothing will happen. Another tweet will come up, and the cycle will begin anew.

Thank you so much for backing up my point so eloquently.

Twitter accounts aren't "meant" for anything beyond expressing a message less than 140 characters long at a time.  There are a variety of things that people use them for, and Trump uses his for stirring up controversy, flexing his e-penis, and venting when he's angry.
Saddam... you are literally agreeing with me, except you're starting the sentence with "no ur wrong".

I don't know how you could possibly argue something like this after the election we just witnessed.  Trump's tweets have already had major consequences, both positive and negative.  He probably would have lost the election if not for Twitter.  Don't you remember the shitstorm about him retweeting posts from white nationalists, like the "Most Corrupt Candidate Ever!" picture?  Or how he's been hammered for continuing to make pro-birther tweets years after he supposedly "ended" the issue by getting Obama to release his long-form birth certificate?  Or the hilarity that ensued when Hillary began calling attention to Trump's friendliness with people tweeting Pepe memes?   Even one tweet he made years ago about global warming being a Chinese hoax formed Hillary's main argument against him on that issue.  As far as Trump's administration goes, the consequences I expect we're going to see play out are how heavily he's strained his relationship with top Republicans.
Ah, yes, all those things that massively set his campaign back and caused MSM to Streisand Effect the fuck out of his candidacy. Yep, definitely the consequences of tweets.

All those super serious issues like people insisting that this:



contains a Star of David and is therefore clearly anti-semitic. All those serious, influential people, who apparently have never been to a supermarket before. It's a shame that he didn't come out as a Satanist instead.

I'm glad that you genuinely think Pepe won the election, though, and that you're taking yourself seriously enough to admit it. That's hilarious.



When I talked about the mainstream media, I had meant reasonably moderate newspapers, like the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc., rather than openly left-wing sources.  However, after further research, I've discovered that those moderate newspapers aren't nearly as unanimously pitted against the whiny liberals and their safe spaces as I had thought.  Indeed, there are just many articles from them defending such liberals and their ideas as there are articles criticizing them.  So I'll retract my complaint about this being the mainstream narrative, as that doesn't appear to be the case.
Woop woop, you backed away from your least insane claim, the one you could have actually tried defending, while doubling down on the sheer lunacy of "Pepe the Frog helped Trump win the election". Well done.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 12:59:01 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline rooster

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1867 on: December 02, 2016, 01:29:00 PM »
I think the whole Pepe thing showed more people that Hillary had no idea what the fuck she was talking about while also ostracizing anyone who does use Pepe for the lulz.

At least I think that was one of her more retarded moves - so it's certainly plausible that it didn't help her campaign at least.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1868 on: December 02, 2016, 01:32:00 PM »
@SexWarrior - You don't have to look very hard to see that Twitter activities have caused celebrities and plebs alike to lose jobs over tweets. That being said, it obviously was not a fatal mistake for Trump.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1869 on: December 02, 2016, 01:36:18 PM »
They are no different than if any celebrety or political figure went on national TV Twitter and said those things.
[ftfy: Twitter is not TV. One carries an expectation of content and quality control, the other does the opposite. But otherwise:]

Precisely! When Tila Tequila or Kanye West get on Twitter and say retarded shit, a few news outlets will report on it, a few people (usually on the left, because most moral busybodies tend to align themselves with the left) will get outraged, and then... nothing will happen. Another tweet will come up, and the cycle will begin anew.

Thank you so much for backing up my point so eloquently.
Yeah, I walked into that one.
My point, poorly put, is that a tweet is the same as a statement.  A facebook post is the same as a press release.  Words have power, regardless of the medium.
Social Media may have a lower standard of quality but that's because it's *mostly* Unfiltered.  It doesn't mean what's posted isn't a reflection on you.  And everything Donald Trump posts as POTUS will be a reflection on not only him, but also the USA. 

As for consequences, I don't think it's as consequence free as you think.  Ticket sales, banned accounts, loss of contracts, opportunities, record deals, sponsorship, etc... are all very real for those celebrities.  Bad PR and all that.

What consequences, exactly, do you expect?  Not like Kanye West can start a war with China by calling Xi Jinping an asshole.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1870 on: December 02, 2016, 01:57:08 PM »
I think the whole Pepe thing showed more people that Hillary had no idea what the fuck she was talking about while also ostracizing anyone who does use Pepe for the lulz.

At least I think that was one of her more retarded moves - so it's certainly plausible that it didn't help her campaign at least.
I agree, but can you really put the blame for the fact that Trump can navigate online shitposting culture better than Clinton on either:

a) Trump
b) Twitter?

@SexWarrior - You don't have to look very hard to see that Twitter activities have caused celebrities and plebs alike to lose jobs over tweets.
Agreed pre-emptively:

The only possible "consequences" of personal tweets is that a bunch of butthurt liberals might try to get the owner of the account fired. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what's happening, just with zero success.
To clarify, "zero success" refers to the fact that Trump (specifically) isn't getting fired over tweets, rather than that no one has ever been fired over tweets.

As for consequences, I don't think it's as consequence free as you think.  Ticket sales, banned accounts, loss of contracts, opportunities, record deals, sponsorship, etc... are all very real for those celebrities.  Bad PR and all that.
Again, I already acknowledged that his statements set his campaign back. As they should have. If people disapprove of Trump's statements, they shouldn't support Trump. However, I think it's fair to say that these aren't the consequences that Saddam fears when he says "He doesn't take the time to consider his actions, maybe look over his words, reflect on what the consequences might be - no, he has to go wherever his id drags him." - and that's precisely the statement I'm ripping into here.

What consequences, exactly, do you expect?  Not like Kanye West can start a war with China by calling Xi Jinping an asshole.
Wrong person to ask. I expect no serious consequences of personal tweets. It's Twitter, for Christ's sake. Saddam's the one who thinks people on Twitter should "think about the consequences" before posting.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 02:09:09 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1871 on: December 02, 2016, 02:05:08 PM »
Saddam... you are literally agreeing with me, except you're starting the sentence with "no ur wrong".

No, I'm not.  You're saying, "This is the correct use of Twitter, therefore there is nothing wrong with what he's doing," while I'm saying, "There is no such thing as 'the correct use' of Twitter beyond the technical limits, so arguing that what he's doing is perfectly acceptable because it's such a correct use of Twitter is meaningless."

Quote
Ah, yes, all those things that massively set his campaign back and caused MSM to Streisand Effect the fuck out of his candidacy. Yep, definitely the consequences of tweets.

All those super serious issues like people insisting that this:



contains a Star of David and is therefore clearly anti-semitic. All those serious, influential people, who apparently have never been to a supermarket before. It's a shame that he didn't come out as a Satanist instead.

I'm glad that you genuinely think Pepe won the election, though, and that you're taking yourself seriously enough to admit it. That's hilarious.



Media coverage and criticism are still consequences, regardless of whether or not you think the coverage was justified or the criticisms were deserved.  All you're really arguing here is "I don't care what people say on Twitter, therefore nobody does."

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1872 on: December 02, 2016, 02:15:16 PM »
No, I'm not.  You're saying, "This is the correct use of Twitter, therefore there is nothing wrong with what he's doing,"
Except that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm laughing at you thinking that Twitter is serious business, and that Trump's tweets should be taken seriously.

Media coverage and criticism are still consequences, regardless of whether or not you think the coverage was justified or the criticisms were deserved.  All you're really arguing here is "I don't care what people say on Twitter, therefore nobody does."
Except that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm laughing in your face for your "he doesn't even think about the consequences!!!" spiel. If the consequences you're so worried about is that someone might write a story about how Trump is totally a mean bean, that's laughable. "Trump shouldn't say words because someone else might also say words" is a very, very poor argument, and a big downgrade even from what you originally said.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 02:33:52 PM by SexWarrior »
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1873 on: December 02, 2016, 04:25:12 PM »
Except that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm laughing at you thinking that Twitter is serious business, and that Trump's tweets should be taken seriously.

What the President of the United States says publicly is absolutely serious business, and it doesn't matter if his medium of choice is Twitter, MySpace, Instagram, or scribbling down messages on paper airplanes that he throws at journalists.

Quote
Except that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm laughing in your face for your "he doesn't even think about the consequences!!!" spiel. If the consequences you're so worried about is that someone might write a story about how Trump is totally a mean bean, that's laughable. "Trump shouldn't say words because someone else might also say words" is a very, very poor argument, and a big downgrade even from what you originally said.

Pardon me for supposing that public opinion bears some relevance to international politics. ::)

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1874 on: December 02, 2016, 05:16:53 PM »
I'm personally more concerned with his introduction call with the Pakistan PM.

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/12/01/504010662/trump-gushes-about-pakistan-in-call-with-its-prime-minister

"President Trump said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif you have a very good reputation. You are a terrific guy. You are doing amazing work which is visible in every way. I am looking forward to see you soon. As I am talking to you Prime Minister, I feel I am talking to a person I have known for long. Your country is amazing with tremendous opportunities. Pakistanis are one of the most intelligent people. I am ready and willing to play any role that you want me to play to address and find solutions to the outstanding problems."

I will point out that Trump has tweeted about Pakistan's betrayal calling them "some ally" in the past and wanting them to apologize for hiding Osama Bin Laden. So who knows what the fuck this guy is thinking.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1875 on: December 02, 2016, 09:17:10 PM »
As for consequences, I don't think it's as consequence free as you think.  Ticket sales, banned accounts, loss of contracts, opportunities, record deals, sponsorship, etc... are all very real for those celebrities.  Bad PR and all that.
Again, I already acknowledged that his statements set his campaign back. As they should have. If people disapprove of Trump's statements, they shouldn't support Trump. However, I think it's fair to say that these aren't the consequences that Saddam fears when he says "He doesn't take the time to consider his actions, maybe look over his words, reflect on what the consequences might be - no, he has to go wherever his id drags him." - and that's precisely the statement I'm ripping into here.

What consequences, exactly, do you expect?  Not like Kanye West can start a war with China by calling Xi Jinping an asshole.
Wrong person to ask. I expect no serious consequences of personal tweets. It's Twitter, for Christ's sake. Saddam's the one who thinks people on Twitter should "think about the consequences" before posting.
George is right though.  Personal tweets or not, The president of the United States isn't going to get a pass on anything he tweets just because "It's twitter".  It's easy to dismiss it as "lol, why so serious" but it's still words.  It's still your words.  If I go on tweeting my feelings about something, those who follow me are going to think that's how I feel.  To do otherwise would be saying that I'm tweeting lies or satire.  So far, we've no indication that Donald isn't serious in everything he tweets.  It may be a lie or wrong, but he's serious about the message he's sending.  He's also using it to bypass the press and deliver his message directly.  His tweets are even going to be archived by the government.

So when you have all that, his tweets become very serious.  In fact, because they're HIS tweets and often shot off quickly and without a speech writer, they are a good look into what he really thinks.  And if I were a world leader, I'd be following him on twitter to find out just what he thinks.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1876 on: December 03, 2016, 11:40:57 AM »
What the President of the United States says publicly is absolutely serious business, and it doesn't matter if his medium of choice is Twitter, MySpace, Instagram, or scribbling down messages on paper airplanes that he throws at journalists.
Fuck me, am I glad that your worldview is losing ground so quickly.

Pardon me
Let me talk to you about that after I get into office.

Meanwhile, in less Saddam news, Trump is already pissing China off. About time.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1877 on: December 03, 2016, 07:17:34 PM »
You said yourself that more people than ever before are relying on social media for their news.  Why should the president's Twitter account be any different?  And it's not like Trump doesn't use it for precisely that purpose.  I'd understand where you were coming from if it was solely dedicated to his casual musings, but he's making hiring/nomination announcements there, linking to interviews and news articles he wants his followers to see, and discussing his touring schedule.  It seems like Trump expects his Twitter account to be taken seriously, even if you don't.

<Rushy> George: https://i.redd.it/3o220qscz61y.jpg
<George> lol
<beardo> Kek
<George> NATIONAL ALERT SYSTEM
<George> ur a fagit
<George> faggit*
<George> http://www.snopes.com/trump-can-send-texts-to-all-americans/
<Rushy> No information suggested that President-elect Trump had plans to frivolously mass text the United States.
<Rushy> Pfft
<Rushy> Like he actually plans things
<Rushy> Why use Twitter when you can just message everyone in America instantly
<George> shitposting en masse
<George> I actually hope he does this
<George> I would laugh and laugh
<Rushy> No one could possibly think this is an actually possible scenario
<Rushy> I do want to see it
<Rushy> "hey guys guess who is literally not your president? Hillary. Lmao. -The Don"
<George> yes
<Rushy> I can't even imagine the insanity that would cause
<Rushy> It's something reserved only for a parody universe
<beardo> I'd love it
<George> Trump is from a parody universe
<Rushy> "just got out of a meeting with Mexico, still think not pay4wall. I declare war on Mexico."
<Rushy> They will pay in blood


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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1878 on: December 03, 2016, 10:18:15 PM »
You said yourself that more people than ever before are relying on social media for their news.  Why should the president's Twitter account be any different?
Primarily because of the way he uses it. It's a good channel for some things, but "news" is taking it way too far.

You've departed so far from your original issue - Trump talking about how he thinks flag-burning should be a punishable offence. It's not "news", it's not a dangerous legal precedent, and it's not something that should warrant "stopping and think about the consequences!!1!" before doing it. It's just a notorious troll voicing an opinion on a personal Twitter channel - an opinion which may or may not be serious for all we know, but one that doesn't ultimately matter either way.

I'd understand where you were coming from if it was solely dedicated to his casual musings, but he's making hiring/nomination announcements there, linking to interviews and news articles he wants his followers to see, and discussing his touring schedule.
Eh. I don't think the presence of serious tweets makes the entire channel serious. I'll concede that it's not a pure stream of shitposts, but that doesn't make his shitposting any more serious.


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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1879 on: December 09, 2016, 04:17:26 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/06/did-donald-trump-tank-boeings-stock-because-he-was-mad-about-a-news-article/?utm_term=.0a77785d3019

Granted, it recovered by the end of the day but this is a very real world consequence of his tweets.  Shit posting or not, I bet the CEO of Boeing isn't gonna criticize Trump ever gain.
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