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Offline markjo

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You were taught in school that Hitler was a cartoon villain who imprisoned and persecuted the Jews for no reason at all and made naked acts of aggression. Do you really think that it happened for absolutely no reason at all?
Have you heard about Mein Kampf?  He explained exactly what he thought about the Jews and what he planned to do about them once he got the chance.

Per Poland, the Germans claimed that they were being harrassed and finally attacked.
Right.  Attacking one radio station justified taking over the whole country and the rest of Europe.  It seems that dictators have a problem with proportional responses.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 04:36:29 AM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you are only obligated to treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that way.

The Soviets didn't ratify the Geneva convention, for example. The Germans therefore treated the American and British POWs a lot better than the Soviet POWs, who they enslaved and slaughtered at will. Reminder that this is a war.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-treatment-of-soviet-pows-starvation-disease-and-shootings-june-1941january-1942

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From the very beginning, German policy on the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war (POWs) was determined by Nazi ideology. German political and military leaders regarded Soviet POWs not only as racially less valuable but as potential enemies, obstacles in the German conquest of "living space." The Nazi regime claimed that it was under no obligation for the humane care of prisoners of war from the Red Army because the Soviet Union had not ratified the 1929 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War, nor had it specifically declared its commitment to the 1907 Hague Convention on the Rules of War.

https://roanoke.com/archive/prisoner-of-war-s/article_5bda2cdf-63cc-5574-99e0-de12eb59bf91.html

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World War II: Germans typically treated American POWs in alignment with the Geneva Convention of 1929, which first addressed POW issues.

https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9088

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Still, as Vasilis Vourkoutiotis argues in this very structured study, the case of British and American POWs was unlike that of other POWs held by Nazi Germany and deserves to be examined in its own terms. The combination of three basic facts made it unique: Great Britain and the United States were never occupied by the Wehrmacht, the claim of British and American POWs to be protected by the 1929 Geneva Convention was never disputed by Germany (in contrast to the claim of captured Polish and Soviet soldiers), and there were numerous German POWs held by British and American forces (about three hundred thousand by the end of the war). Thus, whereas Soviet POWs captured by Germany were either murdered outright or held in atrocious conditions (resulting in mortality rates of around 60 percent), British and American POWs experienced treatment, "at a 'satisfactory' level or above," through most of the war (p. 195). Yet, as Vourkoutiotis correctly points out, this "did not necessarily mean that the requirements of the Geneva Convention were being met" (p. 195).

Therefore, the aim of Prisoners of War and the German High Command is straightforward: to examine to what degree the policies of the German High Command (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht or OKW) vis-=-vis British and American POWs consistently conformed to the stipulations of the Geneva Convention, and to investigate whether the de facto treatment followed OKW policies. Differently put, was it OKW policy that facilitated "satisfactory" material conditions in most of the camps, and was it the very same policy that resulted in a number of flagrant violations of the Geneva Convention. Thus, although the issue of OKW culpability in war crimes never receives more than a passing mention, it is implicitly present throughout the book.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 04:17:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you only treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that way.

The Soviets didn't ratify the Geneva convention, for example. The Germans therefore treated the American and British POWs a lot better than the Soviet POWs, who they enslaved and slaughtered at will. Reminder that this is a war.
Incorrect.  Germany signed the Geneva Convention and was therefore bound by its rules, even if the Soviets weren't.   Mein Kampf detailed what Hitler thought about the communists too and he hated the Communists almost as much as he hated the Jews.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 04:36:02 AM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline crutonius

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I get the impression that Tom Bishop is the sort of guy who watches 300 and roots for Xerxes

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Offline stack

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you are only obligated to treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that

Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?

Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Lord Dave

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.

Super obvious. Even above the normal trolling level. It’s just funny to see actually how far he’ll go. Will he break through the holocaust denial troll barrier? We shall see.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.

Super obvious. Even above the normal trolling level. It’s just funny to see actually how far he’ll go. Will he break through the holocaust denial troll barrier? We shall see.

The man has broken the "basic physics" troll barrier.
He has no barriers now.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Yeah, "troll". I think you really mean that you have no rebuttal to the fact that the Jews as a race declared war on Germany before Germany declared official sanctions on the Jews.

Have you heard about Mein Kampf?  He explained exactly what he thought about the Jews and what he planned to do about them once he got the chance.

I've looked into that. It says nothing about murdering the Jews. The Nazi solution was originally to deport them.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-final-solution

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Did the Nazis always plan to murder the Jews?

No. When the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, they did not have a plan to murder the Jews of Europe. However, the Nazis were antisemitic. They saw Jews in Germany as a problem. One of the major questions for the Nazis was: How do we get rid of the Jewish population in Germany? This was often referred to by the Nazis as the “Jewish Question.”

Mass murder was not the Nazis’ first solution to the “Jewish Question.” In fact, the Nazis experimented with a variety of anti-Jewish policies and plans. For example, throughout the 1930s, they tried to force Jews to emigrate.

Quote from: markjo
Right.  Attacking one radio station justified taking over the whole country and the rest of Europe.  It seems that dictators have a problem with proportional responses.

From what Hitler said in quotes from the previous link the country was being harassed:



It would be easy to see how that could escalate.

Also, everyone knew by that point that there was a war building up between the powers. It didn't just happen out of the blue. Hence why Poland would mobilize its army.

Here are some quotes to research:

    “Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to.”
    — Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly, as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939.

    “It will be the Polish army that will invade Germany on the first day of war.”
    — Juliusz Łukasiewicz, Polish Ambassador in Paris, August 15,1939.

Sounds pretty aggressive to me. I don't know why you are assuming that Poland was purely innocent in that situation, or the other Allied powers for that matter.

    “Germany is too strong. We must destroy her.”
    —  Winston Churchill, Nov. 1936

Feel free to perform a search on that. If Churchill really said that and felt that way, it can hardly be claimed that Hitler was truly making naked acts of aggression like popularly claimed.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 04:35:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

a ukraine thread in which tim uses literal nazi propaganda to justify why it was okay to liquidate millions of jews simply for being jews.

sometimes i hate this forum.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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It was pretty clear historically that Hitler hated the Jews long before any of this Naxi propaganda was printed. It's the same hate boner that rages anti-Semites to shoot up synagogues today.
That's why people like Tom call Jewish people a 'race.' It's another way to make them different and hate on them.

Did anyone else notice that the original image in Tom's 2:03 post changed? It was literally and obviously a fake newspaper headline and now it's just a quote. I wonder if the hate mongers really fall for this stupid crap or if they just think they'll fool others with it.

 
The Lungmen were here...


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Offline Lord Dave

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It was pretty clear historically that Hitler hated the Jews long before any of this Naxi propaganda was printed. It's the same hate boner that rages anti-Semites to shoot up synagogues today.
That's why people like Tom call Jewish people a 'race.' It's another way to make them different and hate on them.

Did anyone else notice that the original image in Tom's 2:03 post changed? It was literally and obviously a fake newspaper headline and now it's just a quote. I wonder if the hate mongers really fall for this stupid crap or if they just think they'll fool others with it.

Tom is known for making quick posts then editing them when he realizes they'll break character or expose something obvious.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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The newspaper headline isn't fake.

Here is a copy of the front page on Archive.org: https://archive.org/details/judea-declares-war-on-germany_202006



Here is another version of the newspaper with slightly different graphics on Archive.org which has the full paper: https://archive.org/details/Httpsarchive.orgdetailsJudeadeclareswarongermany/Daily%20Express%20-%20Judea%20Declares%20War%20on%20Germany/24-3-1933/Pagina%201%20-%20Portada/mode/1up



Looks pretty real to me.

Next go to the Daily Express Archive at https://www.ukpressonline.co.uk/ukpressonline/?sf=express and search for the date "24/03/1933" in the date field. The graphic in the first result clearly has the same headline "Judea Declares War on Germany", although you need to subscribe to see the full paper:



Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?

The Germans possibly could have seen them as enemy POWs like the Soviet POWs at the time. It seems possible that they could have seen them that way, yes. I wasn't there. But if you want to avoid being killed my advice would be not to declare war on people.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 08:14:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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This is what Hitler was saying in 1920 to cheering crowds...

"This is the first demand we must raise and do [reversal of the Versailles Treaty provisions]: that our people be set free, that these chains be burst asunder, that Germany be once again captain of her soul and master of her destinies, together with all those who want to join Germany. (Applause)

And the fulfillment of this first demand will then open up the way for all the other reforms.  And here is one thing that perhaps distinguishes us from you [Austrians] as far as our programme is concerned, although it is very much in the spirit of things: our attitude to the Jewish problem.

For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to-one to be solved by small concessions.  For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. (Applause)



Hitler was a creature of hate. Your attempt to paint him as a persecuted soul defending his home is as wrong as painting the earth as flat.

But this really reveals how you actually feel about members of the 'Jewish race.'
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Offline Tom Bishop

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I didn't say that Hitler was innocent in this. I said that the Jews were not completely innocent. I'm pretty sure that many politicians in the past have said that illegal aliens need to go, or that x group is a problem. That's not an act of war, however, and exists as rhetoric in a speech until acted upon. You could listen to another politician the next day saying that Soviets bad, or Muslims bad.

The fact remains that the Jews struck at Germany before official sanctions were placed against them.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 06:38:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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The fact remains that the Jews struck at Germany before official sanctions were placed against them.
What military force did the Jews use to strike at Germany?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline stack

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Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?

The Germans possibly could have seen them as enemy POWs like the Soviet POWs at the time. It seems possible that they could have seen them that way, yes. I wasn't there. But if you want to avoid being killed my advice would be not to declare war on people.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that if, for example, some Christians "declared war" on a country, that that targeted country should round up all the Christians they can find, lock them up, then mutilate, shoot, or gas them? And this is the outcome people should expect?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Let me get this straight. You're saying that if, for example, some Christians "declared war" on a country, that that targeted country should round up all the Christians they can find, lock them up, then mutilate, shoot, or gas them? And this is the outcome people should expect?

Considering that it has happened numerous times before in holy wars and ethnic wars, yes, people should expect that it could be the outcome of a war.

Here are a few - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansing_campaigns

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146 BC: The Battle of Carthage was the main engagement of the Third Punic War between the Punic city of Carthage in what is now the country of Tunisia and the Roman Republic. It was a siege operation, starting sometime between 149 and 148 BC, and ending in the spring of 146 BC with the sack and complete destruction of the city of Carthage. In the spring of 146 BC, the Romans broke through the city wall, eventually after hours upon hours of house-to-house fighting, the Carthaginians surrendered. An estimated 50,000 surviving inhabitants were sold into slavery. The city was then leveled. The land surrounding Carthage was eventually declared ager publicus (public land), and it was shared between local farmers, and Roman and Italian ones.
..
350 AD: Ancient Chinese texts record that General Ran Min ordered the extermination of the Wu Hu, especially the Jie people, during the Wei–Jie war in the fourth century AD. People with racial characteristics such as high-bridged noses and bushy beards were killed; in total, 200,000 were reportedly massacred.[2]
..
1069-1070 William the Conqueror devastated Northern England in what is now known as the Harrying of the North. During the Campaign, William pillaged and destroyed numerous towns and cities; destroying all of the region's food supplies with the intent to starve its population during the winter. Only a quarter of Northern England's population remained after the war.
..
1290 AD: Edward I of England expelled all of the Jews who were living in England in 1290. Hundreds of Jewish elders were executed.[4]
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From 1894 to 1896, in an effort to islamize the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Abdul Hamid II ordered the killing of ethnic Armenians (along with other Christian minorities) living in the Ottoman Empire, based on their religion.
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During the Balkan Wars ethnic cleansings were carried out in Kosovo, Macedonia, Sanjak and Thrace, at first, they were committed against the Muslim population, but later, they were also committed against Christians, villages were burned and people were massacred.
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The Armenian genocide which occurred during World War I was implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacres and forced labor, and the deportation of women, children, the elderly and the infirm to the Syrian Desert on death marches.
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The Bolshevik regime killed or deported an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 Don Cossacks during the Russian Civil War, in 1919–1920.[52] Geoffrey Hosking stated "It could be argued that the Red policy towards the Don Cossacks amounted to ethnic cleansing.
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The Holodomor (1932–1933) is considered by many historians as a genocidal famine perpetrated on the orders of Josef Stalin that involved widespread ethnic cleansing of ethnic Ukrainians in Soviet Ukraine.
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In 1947, the Jammu Massacre took place. The event has been described as ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 10:39:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Now that the Ukraine invasion is probing to be a series of screw-ups by the Russian military, I wonder if Trump will finally stop calling Putin a genius.

It's well known that the one thing Trump hates most is a loser, and I have to imagine he will abandon his buddy Putin the moment it looks like he might be associated with losing.

I'll be watching the news to see the first signs of Trump doing a 180 and claiming he hardly knew the guy.  ::)