totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2020, 10:18:19 AM »
The issue with how police work in the US is the problem.

The US experienced a dramatic increase in the level of violent crime when police were pulled from walking beats and placed in cruisers with tinted windows, removed from public interaction.

If you have no established relationships with people, then all will suffer.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 10:29:35 AM by totallackey »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2020, 10:27:14 AM »
The issue with how police work in the US is the problem.

the US experienced a dramatic increase in the level of violent crime when police were pulled from walking beats and placed in cruisers ...

... and when they lose their self-control in one of those cruisers ...

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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2020, 10:34:25 AM »
That's 45 mins or so of video with a couple of folks talking to camera.

You could at least summarise in your own words what they say, and what you think the videos actually say which is pertinent to the thread....

However, didn't you say yesterday you were "done" ???
Done with you cause you are clearly an idiot and also perfectly willing to be dishonest and use dishonest tactics to push your pov.

Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons. There are bad some bad cops and probably some procedural issues that should be addressed.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2020, 12:02:00 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?
I don't care what events led up to the 75 year old being shoved over are, he wasn't charging at the policeman, he wasn't doing anything illegal, he was just standing there - shuffling towards them slowly maybe but clearly not a danger.
I'm sure they were yelling at him to get out of the way but he clearly wasn't young or particularly nimble. I'm sure they're dealing with difficult situations right now but that is their job. Shoving him to the ground like that was not OK.
It isn't a criticism of America to say that wasn't ok, it's a criticism of that policeman who callously shoved an old man to the ground and then just walked off. Sorry but that is not acceptable. And no, it's not a "fit of psychosis", it's violent bullying by a person who is in a position of power and doesn't seem to have the temperament for it. There does seem to be a problem with this sort of thing, these are not one off incidents. For balance, some of the police responses to the protests have been quite heart warming.
So while I'm not sure the police are collectively out of control, some individuals are and should be removed.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2020, 12:09:21 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2020, 12:17:59 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2020, 01:17:18 PM »
Done with you cause you are clearly an idiot and also perfectly willing to be dishonest and use dishonest tactics to push your pov.
Please don't do this outside of AR. If you want to call someone names, do so in Angry Ranting.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2020, 01:22:23 PM »
Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons.

Why should we believe that this YouTuber has assembled a meaningful survey of the populace, such that he can assert "most" Americans ... ? 
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2020, 01:54:14 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2020, 01:55:37 PM »
Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons.

Why should we believe that this YouTuber has assembled a meaningful survey of the populace, such that he can assert "most" Americans ... ?
You are joking, right?

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.

Proving the point!
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2020, 04:38:28 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.

Proving the point!
If by proving the point you mean that decrying the current state of healthcare in the US is somehow going to be be fixed by continuing the practices which helped wreck it to begin with???

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2020, 04:49:43 PM »
The USA has never had single payer healthcare.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2020, 07:08:41 PM »
Quote
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

Tumeni has never had experience with American police except for the random video clips which start with showing a police officer with his arm up in the air about to bring a police batton beating to someone's head, or a police officer in the process of pushing someone. From this he concludes that the police are "out of control" and randomly beating people.

If Tumeni had actually had any experience with American Police he would have known that they operate by strict rules of engagement in a highly litigatious society. That police officer likely isn't beating innocent people for no reason at all, as Tumeni would like us to believe. And considering the nature of the environment these videos originate - violent protests - these people may have been doing anything from assaulting the officers, trying to grab their sidarms, or making direct threats to their lives.

So this thread really seems to be about a foreigner who did not grow up around the American police, learn about American police or American law in his school system, who did not watch American shows about the American police (ie. 'Cops'), who has no direct knowledge of the American police, and had no friends or family members who are American police (as many in America do), and who is posting here making wild, wacky, and frankly absurd assumptions from internet clips he finds online.

Quote
I don't care what events led up to the 75 year old being shoved over are, he wasn't charging at the policeman, he wasn't doing anything illegal, he was just standing there - shuffling towards them slowly maybe but clearly not a danger.

How do you know he wasn't doing anything to deserve a pushing? This article isn't too kind about the guy. See bolded:

Buffalo Officials Duped By Professional Antifa Provocateur – Arrest and Charge Two Police Officers – Righteous Police Team Stand Together and Walk Out…

Quote
Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur who brags on his blog about the number of times he can get arrested and escape prosecution. Gugino’s Twitter Account is also filled with anti-cop sentiment [SEE HERE].  Last Thursday Gugino traveled from his home in Amherst, New York, to Buffalo to agitate a protest crowd.

During his effort Gugino was attempting to capture the radio communications signature of Buffalo police officers. CTH noted what he was attempting on Thursday night as soon as the now viral video was being used by media to sell a police brutality narrative. [Thread Here] Today, a more clear video has emerged that shows exactly what he was attempting.

So he has a blog and twitter full of anti-cop stuff, and brags about how he can get arrested and escape prosecution, and is seen in the video passing his phone over the police officer's equipment.

But yeah, lets just assume that he is an innocent old man who just happened to be at a violent protest for innocent and circumstantial reasons.  ::)

Here is slow motion of him passing his phone over the belts and chest of an officer before he got pushed:

« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 10:47:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2020, 07:47:09 PM »
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2020, 07:51:23 PM »
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2020, 08:24:43 PM »
Lazily passing a cellphone in front of an officer?!  Truly monstrous. 

I think we're seeing an example of police mercy.  They would have been fully justified in double tapping him in the head and chest just to make sure he never waved a cellphone in front of an innocent officer again.  Instead they merely marched past him while he lay there motionless with a pool of blood forming around his head.

As always we're lucky to have Tom Bishop representing the side of common sense.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2020, 09:00:08 PM »
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.

An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2020, 09:23:06 PM »
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.

Is it legal or not?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2020, 10:18:03 PM »
An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?

It is not clear what someone is doing when they go up to a police officer in riot gear during a protest and starts passing a phone over the equipment on their body, but computer crimes, theft of data, spying on sensitive communications codes, or destruction of government property are all crimes, and is not unreasonable for the officer to assume. A less perceptive officer might interpret it as intimidation by approaching the officer and passing shiny objects close to him. Probably lucky he was only pushed. The video I posted is slowed down, which means it happened faster.

It is amusing how you guys are now defending our right to approach police officers and pass our phones over the equipment on their persons. This is clearly not an innocent old man who was only asking for directions and was brutally pushed by meanie policemen.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 10:31:44 PM by Tom Bishop »