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### Messages - jimster

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21
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: June 04, 2022, 12:17:20 AM »
Troolon,

If you have oroved that the earth could be any shape, then the earth could be round. Interesting. The only thing I know all FEs to agree on is that the earth is not round. Could be north pole centric, could be south pole centric, could be bi-polar, but they all agree couldn't possibly be round. FEs will like you better if you prove it isn't round rather than that it could be round. To do that, I think you would have to prove that light rays in vacuum can't be straight and measurement is definitely broken. You will be the hero of FE.

I have a degree in math, my son is a math major, and I have reviewed the math behind your claims. Known mathematicians and discussed math all my life. Your claim might be restated as: The earth appears round in Euclidean 3-space but reality is secretly non-Euclidean (measurement is broken, as you say, and rays of light that seem to travel straight are actually bent, perhaps in different ways depending on the position of the observer). Once you assume measurement is broken and light curves in unknown ways, an infinite number of possibilities with no way to know which one.

You also did not incorporate the astronomical transform. When you apply your transform to earth, what about stars millions of light years away? Somehow they moved into a dome, but you have no math for that. Once you say the light bends and you don't know the equation, those stars could be anywhere, sun, moon, etc. The earth could be a cylinder a million miles long and an inch diameter. Meanwhile, Euclidean 3 space with RE gives us GPS, ICBM, airliner finds the airport, sextant north star latitude makes perfect sense, and the solution is singular. If light doesn't bend and measurement isn't broken, the earth is round.

Your ideas re coordinate transforms, basis, and "mathematically equivalent", and your physics claim that it follows a shape change through coordinate transformation are wrong. If you are right, you can go to the math and physics community and explain, for example, the power that coordinate transforms have to bend light. You will be famous, but you will need experiments and equations. You found a reasonable (to you, although not to a professor) of how the earth's shape is unknown. I imagine you will not share your discoveries with them, perhaps posting on TFES is the thing to do with it. To what end?

So the choice of what to do with your discoveries is up to you. You can post on TFES and get some agreement and some explanation of why you are wrong from RE. If I knew some part of science was wrong, I would go to scientists and explain in an attempt to set them straight. But I suppose if they did not agree, it would be because of conspiracy, or perhaps scientists and mathematicians are stupid. Conspiracy can really explain a lot, and you never have to have details or evidence, because its secret, so how could you know the details and the evidence is they all say the wrong RE stuff.

Still, just the idea that changing coordinates changes the shape of a geometric figure would be a starting point. Go to some mathematicians and show them how you changed a sphere into a disk by coordinate conversion. If they say "It doesn't work that way, you don't understand coordinate conversion, the figure remains the same size and shape." Perhaps all mathematicians are wrong, just the ones at UCLA, maybe you can explain, but this is their definition, so don't they get to decide?

You started with a globe where Australia's size matched real world measurements and Sigma Octantus made sense. Then you transformed the surface into a disk, where Australia was wrong size and Sigma Octanus made no sense. Then you claimed this as mathematically equivalent, and then that the physics is then equivalent.  Forget which is true, which is useful? If it pleasures you to think that under the RE appearance, non-Euclidean math means it is flat, well, I can't stop you. But the fact that you can map the points on a sphere to a disk if you don't care that the size is wrong and the light bends, but that doesn't prove the earth could be any shape. If anything, you have proved that it is round. In the infinite possibilties of shape agnostic earth, only one works with measurement and light waves traveling straight in a vacuum, Polaris and SIgma Octantus, etc, etc etc.

Does that mean anything? As I said, forget true, what is useful?

22
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« on: April 30, 2022, 03:29:27 AM »
What is the motive of Spacex?

What is the motive of the Japanese Space Agency, and India Space Agency?

When the Chinese decided to have a space program, did NASA go over there, explain the situation, and get them to go along with the hoax? For what motive? Or did they have a missile go splat against the dome, contact NASA and ask them what to say? I find the image of a meeting such as this where one side is revealing the earth is flat and securing the cooperation of someone grown up in RE world, even more fascinating when they come out of the meeting faking RE without missing a beat.

If one speculates about such a motive? Details and corroboration, or just speculation?

23
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: New Star Map
« on: April 30, 2022, 01:50:50 AM »
To say things are not how they appear and offer no explanation or evidence is absolutely inconsistent with science. FE is absolutely inconsistent with RE. RE has experiments, observations, mathematics, and much confirmation daily. FE has "RE is wrong but we haven't figured it out yet."

Well, suggestion: Posting a wild thought about how things might be is just bla bla bla. Posting a consistent explanatory theory with experimental evidence that contradicts known science, you got something there. Why post until you have that? Suggest not posting util you have that.

The Electromagnetic Acceleration has the explanation "unknown forces with unknown equations". Even if you want to continue exploring the idea, you might want to keep quiet until you can explain, and certainly not go around saying it is true until the forces are known and confirmed with experiments.

Please find a real mathematician and/or physicist and ask them to explain coordinate transformation and basis.  If they have the patience, tell them your idea that coordinate transform changes shape and physical properties are the same.

Also, per you, we can't know the shape of the earth. We can know the precise location of many many points on the earth and the distance between them. We can plot them on the surface of a globe. If all the distances match up, the earth might be round. If there was such a map of FE, the earth might be flat. Until someone produces a FE map with accurate distances between all points, there is no known possible FE.

24
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: April 30, 2022, 01:08:38 AM »
"-> There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape."

If we can measure the physical properties, how can we not know the shape?

25
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: April 30, 2022, 01:05:46 AM »
It is not still a globe model, literally. He has changed the shape of it. He is trying to say that because of his misunderstanding of math and physics, that any shape is the same as any other shape. A globe is a globe in any coordinate system. Changing the coordinate system does not make distances stretch or compress nor make the light bend. Coordinate systems describe geometry, a globe is a globe in cartessian, spherical, or any coordinate system and it has the same physical properties.

Math does no control, it describes. Physics is the process of looking at the world around us and figuring out a consistent explanation for how things work. Math is starting with a set of assumptions and building a logical system. Turns out that if you start with natural numbers and 3 space Euclidean math, you get a useful tool to help you do physics. But a globe is still a globe and has the physical properties of a globe (different from other shapes) no matter what equations you present. Changing coordinate systems does not change the shape of an object, or you have done it wrong.

If the transforms give equivalent results, you don't have to change the laws of physics to get observed reality, distance is constant, light rays don't have to bend and get cancelled to match observations.

26
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: April 29, 2022, 07:56:17 PM »
I think we can actually agree on this.

If you bend the light however you need to, cancel the light where you need to (light comes off the sun only in certain directions), and ignore the problem of distance, then yes, the earth can be any shape.

At present, you have no explanation for why the same dome has Polaris everywhere, yet individual observers see it as directly north, while others see the entire dome as light blue with no stars, and yet others see an entirely different set of stars at the same time. You have no explanation for why longitude lines diverge when real life measurements reveals they converge.

RE geometry explains all this with conventional geometry, light travels straight in a vacuum, the sun radiates in all directions, and distance works consistently everywhere.

Are we all agreed on this?

27
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: April 29, 2022, 07:32:04 PM »
What do all FEs agree on?
A ridiculous notion. Many RE'ers do not understand the difference between velocity and acceleration. Indeed, we get visitors with that misconception rather frequently.

Should I get on my high horse and start asking whether "RE'ers will agree on whether velocity and acceleration are different things"? Of course I shouldn't, that'd be dumb.

In return, you should try to also not do dumb things.

There is a consensus on what acceleration and velocity are. Within math and physics, it is possible to say someone got it right or wrong. Also within RE, there are hundreds of web pages saying the exact same thing, equivalent diagrams, textbooks, etc, there is one standard model of RE. So one can divide RE into those who say the same thing as all that, and those that are different (wrong).

My point is not that some get it wrong in every group, there are always incorrect explanations of everything. My point is that there is no "right" FE model, there are many different and incompatible models. North pole centric, south pole centric, and bi-polar - which is wrong? FE seems to have no interest in figuring that out, FE seems to want to hold all possibilities open except RE. A south pole centrist will dismiss RE while saying maybe bi-polar is right, I think because they are allies against RE. I continue to not understand why RE is not on the FE possibility list, but anything not RE is possible. If not, why are all three maps in the FAQ? when will it be determined which is right?

Regarding "getting on a high horse", RE is not a high horse. It is accepting lessons from teachers and discoverers and humbly trying to pass it on. No glory of discovery, no distinction of being in a small group of brilliant pioneers so brilliant they saw through a giant hoax playing them for fools. FE is casting themself as someone who has surpassed and disproved scientists since Newton, the new Newton come to fix his errors. That is a high horse indeed.

28
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: New Star Map
« on: April 29, 2022, 06:58:41 PM »
Do I understand Metatron's explanation of Polaris appearing directly north of any observer on FE be summed up as: "I don't know anything about how other than vague speculation about projection and reflection, it just does."? Sort of like "unknown forces with unknown equations" in the FAQ re Electromagnetic Acceleration? We can add unknown reflective properties of the FE dome?

Meanwhile, is there any flaw in the RE explanation for where Polaris appears? It requires only the known tested properties of physics, the light doesn't have to bend, no dome with mysterious reflective properties? Does RE explain this with simple geometry? What is the reason to prefer an explanation that has no explanation rather than one that has explanation consistent with geometry and physics?

29
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: March 09, 2022, 08:51:14 PM »
Metatron,

How does gravity work in your model?

30
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: March 09, 2022, 08:49:25 PM »
Pete,

What do all FEs agree on? I started studying FE in 2015, Rowbotham published in 1864.

Any prospect of convergence?

31
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: March 09, 2022, 07:48:43 PM »
Wow. The stars orbit the sun. Can you explain the orbit of Polaris such that it appears directly north in northern hemisphere and not visible in southern hemisphere? Also Sigma Octantus for the southern hemisphere?

Can you show me a diagram of their orbits over a spinning disk FE?

If Antarctica is at the center, then Sigma Octantus must be directly over the center of FE at all times. That is not orbiting the sun. Where is Polaris?

32
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Wiki on aviation
« on: March 09, 2022, 07:26:23 PM »
Tom Bishop,

I want to tell you a bunch of confirmable details on who my friend is and how I know he told the truth, but I do not want to revesal private info so you can see who he is, I don't do that on the internet for obvious general reasons.

Canadian Automated Air Traffic System, known as CAATS, was developed by Hughes Aircraft of Canada, Systems Division (HCSD) (acquired by Raytheon Systems Canada Ltd. in 1997) for NAV CANADA, and MDA was subcontracted by HSCD in 1993. CAATS automates flight data processing between all major air traffic control facilities, managing flight traffic over 5.8 million square miles of Canadian airspace. The CAATS system provides the air traffic controller with all radar, flight data, weather and other information on integrated, high-performance workstations.

Even if I am making it up (I'm not), there are programming departments all around the world doing geolocation programs, navigation programs, etc. They are either using RE equations or FE equations. One of the two gives wrong answers. CAATS is one of them.

33
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: March 09, 2022, 06:48:22 PM »
Metatron, if I understand correctly, you are standing at the center of FE holding one end of a chain with a "large steel ball" attched at the edge of FE and you expect that if FE is rotating (never heard a FE theory where FE rotates around the center - the sun and moon always move), the chain will not have tension because it is moving slowly? That chain is 8000 miles long and has its own effect on the physics, but let's assume it is weightless. I need to know the exact situation with the ball, its mass and is it lying on the surface, coefficient of friction.

I suggest you forget the chain. In general, a ball at the edge of a spinning disk has angular velocity. If the ball is heavy and the spinning is slow, it just sits there. For 8000 mi radius disk spinning at 1 rev/day, the speed at the equator is 1000 mph, much more at the edge, too lazy to calculate, but 1000 mph is enough. So we have a presumably heavy ball traveling at 1000+ mph at the edge of a disk. That ball will travel straight at any given instant, but the path is curved, so some force must be applied towards the center or it flies off the disk. At 1000+ mph with a heavy ball, gonna be a lot of force.

Another way to look at it is suppose you have a ball traveling at 1000 mph on the end of a chain you are holding. Will the chain just lay on the ground? No. If the chain is 100 ft long and 1 rev/day, not much force. If the ball is traveling at 1000+ mph, huge force.

In general, your thought experiment is meaningless until you put numbers to it. You can imagine the results any way you like, perhaps you like an interpretation that fits with your FE beliefs. Real calculations with observed numbers and Newton's laws are consistent with RE

34
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Wiki on aviation
« on: March 08, 2022, 11:15:41 PM »
Pilots say they are flying level when they are flying at constant altitude. The curvature is ignored for aspects that are local, and they talk as though the earth is flat for convenience. Curvature of the earth mainly needs to be considered for navigation, just as he read. Locally, FE = RE or close enough. At 1000 miles, big difference.

35
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: March 08, 2022, 11:00:04 PM »
Turning the earth into a different shape and then ignoring the distortion of distance, bending the light rays however they need to be bent, is certainly possible, although no answer for where is Sigme Octantus? Incorporating that into the model produce a rotating bent light tube not consistent with any known physics except the need to explain FET.

A "fully working FE model" would have to include that, and be able to show what you see from the surface of the earth. It would show how when it is sunset in Denver how a person in Salt Lake City sees daylight over the entire dome and someone in St Louis sees dark with stars at the same time over the entire dome from the perspective of someone outside the dome.

A model of RET can make sense from an external perspective. A model of FET has a dome that is simultaneously light blue and black at the same time, with different stars in northern and southern hemisphere. And Sigma Octantus becomes a ring with light tubes that bend the light to the observed elevation and stop you from seeing the circle except for the pint directly south of you.

Rube Goldberg.

36
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Wiki on aviation
« on: March 08, 2022, 10:40:15 PM »
I told my software engineer friend about FE. He told me he was the programmer who wrote the routing software for the Canadian Air Traffic Control System. The US uses airways, set routes like interstates. The Canadians wanted to route their planes straight from departure airport straight to the destination for each airplane (routing around collisions, of course). He wrote the program that figured out the distance and direction. He said he used the spherical geometry equations straight out if a textbook and they worked perfectly. Obviously, they did much qa, and the system has been in use for decades, many planes arrive where they intended to go daily. If the earth was flat, the equations would be wrong and the pilots would not find an airport where the software sent them. The longer the route, the more the difference.

You can do this yourself, actually. Do the spherical trig math to calculate the distance between two cities, for Tom Bishop, make that two cities on the same land mass, perhaps Beijing and Madrid. For some reason, Tom Bishop thinks gps doesn't work over water. The RE 3d trig answer will match google maps, airline schedule, time/speed/distance of airliner flight, lat/long per wikipedia, etc, and no evidence at all for the FE distance calculation, whatever that might be.

Find a discrepancy between any RE info sources or the math calculations and prove FE! I will be your disciple. And I will make a lot better video than the one you just posted. His production values, scripting, delivery, etc is just bad regardless of the truth of his content. FYI, this maybe shouldn't matter, but it does. People are more likely to believe well made videos, at least most people. Perhaps FEs perceive truth in amateurish, clearly non-expert videos.

37
##### Flat Earth Theory / Question re sense of movement as proof point for FE
« on: March 08, 2022, 08:26:39 PM »
The wiki says that one proof point of FE is that you can't see or feel movement, therefor the earth is stationary. I went on a cruise on a very big ship. In my cheap cabin (no window), there was no motion, sound, or visual indication of movement. Yet I am sure that it did move, as I went to sleep in one port and woke up in another, with no sense of movement. My question is whether it is possible for someone to be moving, yet because the movement is smooth, silent, and everything within my sight is moving the exact same way, is it possible for someone to be moving without being aware that they are moving?

38
##### Flat Earth Theory / What is going on with these observatories
« on: February 23, 2022, 10:16:19 PM »

He said there are 35 such observatories establishing the positions of satellites in 3 space. Are these part of the conspiracy? Or are they all just wrong? Bear in mind that this is part of the gps system, and it works.

Are all the web sites that say where the satellites are correct, if so they establish RE. If not, how does gps work so well? Giant conspiracy? They are all wrong, but somehow gps works in some supersecret way that is not RE?

Can we say anything about this other than the earth is flat, so the math must be wrong and/or conspiracy?

39
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 23, 2022, 10:06:33 PM »
UCLA Math/Computer Science 1975. Never used the math because I became a software engineer. I can barely remember the math, but I learned stuff like what a coordinate system is and can refresh my math memory with internet. I remember enough to see the wrong math you do when make it complicated in order to hide the wrong part. Arguing details is pointless, you are not here to learn, you are here to justify FE.

I talked about FE with a programmer friend. He said that he had written the nav software for the Canadian Air Traffic Control system and used 3d geometry, haversines, straight out of a math textbook. Worked perfectly, airplanes in Canada today arrive exactly where they are supposed to, FE math would be different and not work. He has a degree in math.

I would be astounded if there was a qualified mathematician or physicist that agreed with any of Troolon's math. I am not surprised that he cites secret experts. Confirmation without possibility of falsification.

I remember when my linear algebra prof started the lecture with "Today we are going to talk about how we know the earth is not flat, Gauss' Remarkable Theorem." The normal vectors on the surface of a flat disk are parallel, so curvature is zero. The normal vectors on the surface of of a sphere are not parallel, so the curvature is not zero. Find me a math prof who will disagree with this. There aren't any. There is a reason why you are sayoing this on FE site, say it on a math web site, or astronomy, or astrophysics.

What you did is simple, you peeled the surface of the sphere off from the south pole and stretched it out into a disk, like popping a balloon and stretching the balloon out into a disk. All the rest is just blather. Doing this stretches out the size of everything in the southern hemisphere. In your graphics, Australia is clearly bigger than North America. Measurement is measurement, and there are many ways to know the true sizes.

But distance is not your only problem. When you stretch it, the south pole becomes the circle around the edge. If you incorporate Sigma Octantus, as directly above south pole, it becomes a circle rather than a particular point. Even if this made sense, you have to explain why observers in the southern hemisphere see it as a small dot on the part of the circle and do not see the rest of the circle. A difficult to explain combination of bent light and directional light, much like the spotlight sun problem, but worse.

Except for one thing, Sigma Octantus is not directly above the south pole, it is a little over a degree off axis. So consider the Southern Cross. It is enough south that it is seen from everywhere in the southern hemisphere as being due south. It is much like the big and little dippers in northern hemisphere. Where is the Southern Cross? It appears everywhere as outward from the disk. Where is it really? That question has no sensible answer on FE.

According to your theory, since everything is equivalent, seems like I should be able to do the same math conversion using the south pole. This gives Sigma Octantus pretty close to observed re azimuth. still requires bent light ("unknown forces with unknown equations", per the FAQ) for altitude. But now Polaris, the north star, is everywhere around the edge. Also seems pretty arbitrary to start with the poles, how about your house in the center? Start with your house and peel the surface of the sphere starting with the point directly opposite on the spherical globe. The same transform can be done choosing any point at the center. If you choose a pole, one of the pole stars makes at least some sense. Start at the equator and neither makes any sense at all.

You made graphics to show a transform to several different shapes. Include the pole stars in these transforms and see how much sense it makes. Let's see graphics that include the Southern Cross and the Little Dipper, visible from the places and in the direction that matches observations. You can't do it. Distances, direction, and observed location of astronomical objects are all correct in RE graphics. They are not correct in any other shape.

40
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 16, 2022, 01:58:37 AM »
Troolon,

I would like to know which physicists agree with your ideas. I doubt any would say the earth could be any shape, or that changing coordinate systems changes shapes yet they are still equivalent, or that measurement varies.

You do not understand the concept of coordinate systems. I can't fix this, because 1. no time to take you through geometry, trig, solid geometry, and linear equations, and 2. you don't want to know a truth that would invalidate your theories. I don't know who the experts were, or what you said to them, what they said back yo you, or that you correctly understood their answer, but your ideas on coordinates, measurement, and physics are not true. This is fine on TFES, but try to take these ideas to the real world of physics and math, real experts, and they will say the same as I and others on this thread. If you convince them your ideas are true, you will be hailed as the greatest mathematician/physicist of all time. You are wrong, because you have to be to allow FE, which is why we know the earth is round.

You are doing the equivalent of looking at a funhouse mirror and seeing your legs looking a foot long and deciding you just don't know how long your legs are, any mirror could be right. Graph a ruler on cartessian, then logarithmic. The graph on cartessin will be isometric, linear, a multiple of the straight line. The graph on some coordinate system might be curved, but the ruler is still straight. It is not "could be any shape, no one knows". Please enroll in geometry class.

Gps satellites work by broadcasting a timestamp on each transmission. Your gps device has a table of where the satellite is and a very accurate clock. Subtracting the timestamp in the transmission from the time in the device gives the elapsed time, multiply by speed of light, and you get distance from a known location. This is a sphere around the satellite. Do this with four satellites, and you can calculate 4 spheres, which will intersect at only one point.

This depends on radio waves going straight and the speed of light being constant. If this is true Under your theories, we can't be sure of either. gps would be impossible. Yet it works amazingly well.

Do radio waves travel straight and is the speed of light constant? If not, how does gps work?

If I buy a lidar measuring gadget at Home Depot and take it to Australia, will it still work correctly? I think it will.

Bear in mind that you can buy a usb gps receiver and download open source gps software. You can examine the algorithms and look at raw data. There are web sites where you can look at the current locations of gps satellites and see their transmissions. If you know where satellite is and you can map the locations on the surface of the earth, the result will be a sphere.

The question boils down to: Australia too big on FE, just right on RE. Is the earth round, or is measurement impossible or somehow variable in ways that no one noticed, detectable only by the observing that straight light doesn't work on FE and completely unexplained?

Do you acknowledge that gps and lkidar devices work and match RE theory, while FE is not consistent with observed results without "fudge factors", as the FAQ says, "unknown forces with unknown equations"?

Where is Sigma Octantus?

a. no one knows
b it is everywhere (southern hemisphere) and nowhere (northern hemisphere)?
c ?
d. 204 light years in the direction of the south pole of round earth

Still waiting for your graphics to show sunset in Denver and how Salt Lake City sees daylight over the entire dome while St Louis sees night sky over the entire dome. Please show how someone at night looks up and see stars over the entire dome, including where the sun is. See right through the sun to the stars (beyond?) without seeing the light of the sun. Can you make a model that shows where sun and stars are, but from the point of view of someone on the surface?

Like this: https://stellarium-web.org/

But show how everything works when you move around the simulation on the surface. There's your homework. Explain gps with variable light speed and curved rays, and incorporate day/night sky as seen from the surface into your model.

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