The Flat Earth Society

The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 10, 2021, 09:48:43 PM

Title: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 10, 2021, 09:48:43 PM
Iceman mentioned something in AR which reminded me of something.
I have raised this with Pete privately, but a certain poster does have a habit of sending people abusive DMs when riled.
It seems to be his way of circumventing the rules about personal abuse.
There's no way of reporting a DM, and while I don't think DMs should be covered by the same rules as posts on the fora, I don't think people should have carte blanche to spam people with abusive DMs either.

I believe Pete discussed this with the other mods but I'm not aware there was any outcome.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 10, 2021, 10:00:00 PM
Go into account settings. There you will find an ignore list. Add your nemesis to this list. Poooof! No more DMs from Markjo.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Iceman on August 10, 2021, 10:35:22 PM
Ezpz
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 11, 2021, 06:11:53 AM
Go into account settings. There you will find an ignore list. Add your nemesis to this list. Poooof! No more DMs from Markjo.
I think Pete mentioned that option. But that feels like reporting someone for stalking and the police telling me to move. Shouldn’t action be taken against the stalker?

And if I do the above does that also mean I won’t see their posts on the fora. In this case maybe not a bad thing I guess, but overall I want to see their posts on the fora, I just don’t want abusive DMs
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 11, 2021, 07:08:44 AM
Go into account settings. There you will find an ignore list. Add your nemesis to this list. Poooof! No more DMs from Markjo.
I think Pete mentioned that option. But that feels like reporting someone for stalking and the police telling me to move. Shouldn’t action be taken against the stalker?
So what you are saying is ... 'I don't want to move on Mr Police Officer. I'd like you to use the violence of the state on this person that I don't like. Can you bring to bear your monopoly on violence upon them?'.

I mean, that's a very common thing that many people ask for. But those people are usually purple haired weirdos who like pushing extreme views to enable their weird lifestyle choices.

You can easily just move along. But instead you'd rather hang around provoking a reaction so that the cops get involved and the person you don't like gets arrested. How long have you been a member of Antifa?
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 11, 2021, 07:56:58 AM
Stop being such a Thork.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 11, 2021, 06:19:39 PM
For what it's worth, I haven't forgotten about that question, and we did discuss it among the mods. There wasn't a clear consensus, with views ranging from "if you can block people, then there's no problem" to "we shouldn't allow serious abuse, and PMs should be no exception". I think most of us leaned towards adjusting the rules, but I wouldn't want to pretend that I'm speaking for everyone.

My proposal would be to extend rule 2 - which already applies in CN, AR, etc. - to also encompass PMs. That way, if Thork wants to message me about his fetishes, he can, because it doesn't bother me, but the moment someone makes it clear they're feeling harassed, the sender should back off. Of course, this wouldn't apply retroactively, so anyone currently engaging in such cheerful exchanges would have time to adjust.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 08, 2021, 03:49:47 PM
Oops, he did it again...

To be clear, I don't want a certain poster to be sending me abusive PMs because he can't control his toddler-like tendencies.

Please tell him to desist.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: stack on October 08, 2021, 07:31:59 PM
You might be able to do something with this as sort of a clunky workaround:

(https://i.imgur.com/yirca9u.png)

You'd have to create a "buddy" list. Not sure how to do that.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Dr David Thork on October 08, 2021, 09:02:22 PM
You might be able to do something with this as sort of a clunky workaround:

You'd have to create a "buddy" list. Not sure how to do that.
He doesn't want to. He wants someone to use moderator powers on the perpetrator. Its not a stop to the messages he wants. It is revenge.

toddler-like tendencies
That makes it sound like it is me. It is not me. I rarely DM anyone.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: stack on October 08, 2021, 09:24:13 PM
You might be able to do something with this as sort of a clunky workaround:

You'd have to create a "buddy" list. Not sure how to do that.
He doesn't want to. He wants someone to use moderator powers on the perpetrator. Its not a stop to the messages he wants. It is revenge.

"Revenge"? Really? Isn't that a taste heavy-handed?

There are several ways to handle it.

- Delete on sight before reading
- Put them on ignore
- Create a PM buddy list thing, however that works
- Update SMF to have an "Ignore" list just for PM's and nothing else
- Have a rule and a reporting to Mod avenue for some sort of intervention which could be as heavy-handed as a warning or as light as suggestion like, "WTF is your problem?"

Each has their pluses and minuses. For example, the last one may sort of stop the asshole from doing so to more than one individual. But then places the burden on mods to have to make a call and intervene, etc.

Delete on sight works, but you have to delete the email too which shows the content in the preview window. And for me, in my email client, I can't see which user it's from until I click on it and it loads into the preview window.

Buddy list may be useful, but then it of course excludes anyone not on it.

Probably a module out there or maybe just a few snips of php to set up a PM ignore list, don't know, but requires effort.

But revenge, no. Just sanity.

Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 08, 2021, 10:08:50 PM
He doesn't want to. He wants someone to use moderator powers on the perpetrator. Its not a stop to the messages he wants. It is revenge.
No, it's a stop to the messages I want. And as I said above I don't think I should have to do anything to make that happen.
When Tom ran crying to the mods to say that the bigger boys were being mean to him - in AR, which was within the rules - the mods did something. They didn't tell him that he should deal with it by keeping out of the thread in question. That was an option, but they took action to stop someone being harassed and as big a baby as I think Tom was being, that was probably the right thing to do.
I'm asking for the same here.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Dr David Thork on October 08, 2021, 10:39:02 PM
He doesn't want to. He wants someone to use moderator powers on the perpetrator. Its not a stop to the messages he wants. It is revenge.
No, it's a stop to the messages I want.
I already told you how to do that. You weren't interested.

Go into account settings. There you will find an ignore list. Add your nemesis to this list. Poooof! No more DMs from Markjo.

Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 08, 2021, 11:23:55 PM
He doesn't want to. He wants someone to use moderator powers on the perpetrator. Its not a stop to the messages he wants. It is revenge.
No, it's a stop to the messages I want.
I already told you how to do that. You weren't interested.
And I explained why. And I just have again.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 08:01:47 AM
We currently have no rules governing PMs. "I want to be happy but not to do anything about it" is unlikely to stick as a case to change the rules (your case was much stronger before you revealed your true intentions just now).

Your happiness is one click away - considerably less effort than writing lengthy non-sequiturs about how you're still upset about rule 2.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 09, 2021, 08:27:05 AM
We currently have no rules governing PMs.

I know. I am suggesting you do. And above you seemed to agree that it would be a good idea:

My proposal would be to extend rule 2 - which already applies in CN, AR, etc. - to also encompass PMs. That way, if Thork wants to message me about his fetishes, he can, because it doesn't bother me, but the moment someone makes it clear they're feeling harassed, the sender should back off. Of course, this wouldn't apply retroactively, so anyone currently engaging in such cheerful exchanges would have time to adjust.

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your case was much stronger before you revealed your true intentions just now).

I don’t know what that mean. My intention is to improve the board’s experience. Not just for me. A certain poster circumvents the rules about abusing other posters by sending them abusive PMs. I don’t believe that should be allowed. You have previously indicated you agree with me.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 08:47:23 AM
And above you seemed to agree that it would be a good idea.
I still do, but you need to keep in mind that imposing restrictions on users is something we don't do lightly. As one of our main champions of the "mods shouldn't do anything ever" cause, I'm sure you can see why.

I know. I am suggesting you do.
The "why" is very important here. When two members were complaining about abusive PMs, it seemed likely that this would grow into a widespread issue. If it does, then it becomes pretty obvious that something should be done. However, if you actively choose for your problems to continue (for example, by not choosing to ignore the one person that's annoying you), who are we to make you happy against your own will?

I don’t know what that mean.
Okay, let's expand on 2 parts of your recent post, then.

No, it's a stop to the messages I want. And as I said above I don't think I should have to do anything to make that happen.
Sorry - that's never going to happen. Rule change or not, it would always be down to you to do something. Right now, you have a way of doing it yourself, without involving us, and without starting drama over it. You are asking for a more complicated process to be implemented, for your sole benefit (the only other person I'd heard from used the ignore function as far as I know), and one that involves pointless back-and-forths and drama. It is difficult to believe that you're doing it for anything else than drama or, as Thork suggested, revenge.

When Tom ran crying to the mods to say that the bigger boys were being mean to him - in AR, which was within the rules
It wasn't within the rules. Rule 2 applies in all fora (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0). I explained this to you time and time again, and it really doesn't matter if you think otherwise.

Therein lies a crux of the issue. When you and your buddies went out of your way to harass one member as a group and continued once he asked you to back off, you broke the rules. When you decided to start further threads harassing Tom to manifest your Marvellous Objection™, you once again broke the rules. The one user currently messaging you mean words is not breaking the rules. The case for changing the rules is contentious among mods (even if I personally lean towards it) and there's not enough evidence of this being a big enough issue to restrict everyone's use of the forum for the future.

My intention is to improve the board’s experience. Not just for me.
I believed you until the post I just quoted. You now made it clear that this is just another complaint about that one time you weren't allowed to break the rules.

Ignore him. If the problem becomes more widespread, there may be a stronger case for adjusting the rules.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2021, 01:52:16 PM
fwiw i think it's perfectly logical to suggest that if we're not allowed to spam insults at someone on the forum, then we shouldn't be allowed to circumvent that by sending those messages as pms. no offense my dude, but you are just way way to quick to assign malice to other users simply because they don't agree with the way you see things.

also yes for sure users can just put that person on their ignore list. but it seems reasonable to say "i want to see the things this person posts on the forum but not the insulting private messages they send."
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 01:59:43 PM
fwiw i think it's perfectly logical to suggest that if we're not allowed to spam insults at someone on the forum, then we shouldn't be allowed to circumvent that by sending those messages as pms.
I agree - it just so happens that I'm not the sole decision-maker here. Restricting everyone's use of the forum for the sake of one person is not a popular suggestion at this point in time (and if this was someone else's idea, AATW would be starting thread after thread about how much he hates new rules).

no offense my dude, but you are just way way to quick to assign malice to other users simply because they don't agree with the way you see things.
He doesn't disagree with how I see things - we're both on board with the change. Nonetheless, starting pointless drama over it is not going to help, and, indeed, is very likely to only make things worse. He didn't get what he wanted, so now he's trolling. I should probably just close this thread, but let's see if others want to chime in - not with meta-discussion on whether AATW's trolling is very good and legitimate, or whether it's trolling at all (take that to AR), but with specific comments regarding the suggestion made in the OP.

also yes for sure users can just put that person on their ignore list. but it seems reasonable to say "i want to see the things this person posts on the forum but not the insulting private messages they send."
You can still see the posts of someone you ignored - you just have to click on them to reveal them.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2021, 02:11:00 PM
I had a similar thought to Gary’s that someone might want to engage publicly with someone’s posts but not have to deal with whatever content is sent privately. It seems a reasonable thing to do. Is there a way to have separate ignore lists for DMs and posts that is easy to implement? If there is, then that would seem a simple fix to my ignorant ass.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 02:13:56 PM
I had a similar thought to Gary’s that someone might want to engage publicly with someone’s posts but not have to deal with whatever content is sent privately. It seems a reasonable thing to do. Is there a way to have separate ignore lists for DMs and posts that is easy to implement? If there is, then that would seem a simple fix to my ignorant ass.
Sure, that should be easy enough to implement. Though I'm not sure what about the current solution is such a deal-breaker. If you ignore someone, you can view their posts just fine. Does a single click on the "hey, you previously indicated that this person upsets you, you sure you wanna read this?" button really cause you much strife?
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2021, 02:15:58 PM
You can still see the posts of someone you ignored - you just have to click on them to reveal them.

lol i actually did forget about that. although i can see it maybe getting annoying having to keep clicking that reveal message.

either way, as i said on irc, i don't have a dog in this fight, i just think the request is a reasonable one and not a troll. just my 69 cents.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Rushy on October 09, 2021, 02:19:46 PM
fwiw i think it's perfectly logical to suggest that if we're not allowed to spam insults at someone on the forum, then we shouldn't be allowed to circumvent that by sending those messages as pms. no offense my dude, but you are just way way to quick to assign malice to other users simply because they don't agree with the way you see things.

also yes for sure users can just put that person on their ignore list. but it seems reasonable to say "i want to see the things this person posts on the forum but not the insulting private messages they send."

The core problem is that private messages are advertised as private. We cannot moderate messages we cannot see. If you can report a PM to a mod then the whole mod team can read it; that doesn't make it a very private message. I support adding some separate ignore list for PMs versus public forum posts, but I do not support adding public rules to private messages.

I had a similar thought to Gary’s that someone might want to engage publicly with someone’s posts but not have to deal with whatever content is sent privately. It seems a reasonable thing to do. Is there a way to have separate ignore lists for DMs and posts that is easy to implement? If there is, then that would seem a simple fix to my ignorant ass.
Sure, that should be easy enough to implement. Though I'm not sure what about the current solution is such a deal-breaker. If you ignore someone, you can view their posts just fine. Does a single click on the "hey, you previously indicated that this person upsets you, you sure you wanna read this?" button really cause you much strife?

This is a valid workaround but it's just that: a workaround. It's a clunky solution to the problem versus a feature change so that you can ignore PMs from a user but not their public posts.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 09, 2021, 02:25:29 PM
you need to keep in mind that imposing restrictions on users is something we don't do lightly. As one of our main champions of the "mods shouldn't do anything ever" cause, I'm sure you can see why.

You’re slightly misrepresenting me but I do think you are prone to be a little trigger happy at times. The board I run is a football one and someone on there compared the mods to referees. You need to let the game flow, so to speak, but it can’t be a free for all. Getting the balance right between whistling every 2 minutes and spoiling the game and being so lenient that it ends up in a brawl is a tricky one. There are certain decisions you make which I disagree with. But I’ve been on the other end of that on the other board so I get that there are judgement calls to be made and whatever you do you’re going to have someone moan at you. Such is the life of a mod.

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The "why" is very important here. When two members were complaining about abusive PMs, it seemed likely that this would grow into a widespread issue. If it does, then it becomes pretty obvious that something should be done. However, if you actively choose for your problems to continue (for example, by not choosing to ignore the one person that's annoying you), who are we to make you happy against your own will?
My problem hasn’t been one for a while. I started this thread 2 months ago and hadn’t had any abuse from said member since then so I thought the issue had been dealt with. The recent abusive DM suggests not.
If I do “ignore” then what does that do? Does that just mean the person can’t DM me or does it also mean I don’t see their posts in the fora? Because I do want to see their posts. I mean, I find them a bit irritating but sometimes they post something I feel I should reply to. Asking me to take the action feels like “victim blaming” (a phrase I generally can’t stand). Especially if you’re suggesting I take action which isn’t quite what I’m asking. I don’t want to “ignore” this poster, I want them to stop sending me abusive DMs. And I can’t think why closing this loophole where someone isn’t allowed to harass others on any of the the fora but can do so by DM with impunity is a bad idea.

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Sorry - that's never going to happen. Rule change or not, it would always be down to you to do something.
Ok, fine. I would have to do something. I’d have to report the problem. Because you can’t see DMs. And I’m not asking you to build a whole mechanism where people can report DMs as they would a post, I just think your suggestion to extending that rule to DMs is the right thing to do.

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You are asking for a more complicated process to be implemented, for your sole benefit
I am not. I think that rule 2 is a reasonable one and should extend to DMs. Why should someone be able to harass another poster by DM? How is that a good thing for the board? Even if we agree it’s rare, is there any up side to people being able to do that?

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It is difficult to believe that you're doing it for anything else than drama or, as Thork suggested, revenge.
We’ve had the conversation about you thinking the worst of me, I thought we were past that. It’s not about “drama” because I’m not a teenager. And it’s not about revenge because I’m not asking for this poster to be banned or warned. I’m not asking for any action to be taken against them but I am asking for your help to stop them harassing me.
IF the ignore feature blocks said poster from sending me DMs but still allows me to see their posts then I guess that’s an acceptable solution. But I still think that extending Rule 2 to DMs is the right thing. Yes it would benefit me but I also think it’s the right thing to do.

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there's not enough evidence of this being a big enough issue to restrict everyone's use of the forum for the future.
Is it restrictive though? Is there any up side to allowing posters to be harassed by DM? Note the difference between abused and harassed. The thread about Tom was there for ages before it was locked. It only became against the rules when he felt he was being harassed. This is the same. I’ve had several abusive messages from this post. I now feel he has crossed the line between abuse and harassment.

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I believed you until the post I just quoted. You now made it clear that this is just another complaint about that one time you weren't allowed to break the rules.

No it isn’t. Why do you insist on thinking I have an ulterior motive all the time? I spent a fair amount of time here. I came here initially out of a sense of incredulity and I’ll admit my initial posts here were mostly “FE bad” because I thought you were all crackers. But when I got in to the culture of the place I settled down more and now mostly pass the time of day in the lower fora. It’s a reasonable way of wasting time during down time at work. It’s obviously in my interest that this place is better for me and for others. I don’t believe that a poster should be able to harass other posters in any way. I’ve yet to hear any good reason why this should be allowed.

If you could clarify whether ignore only blocks DMs, it it does then ok, that does solve my issue. If it affects my experience of the fora then it does not.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
I support adding some separate ignore list for PMs versus public forum posts, but I do not support adding public rules to private messages.

clunky wording on my part; i agree with the former as well. a separate ignore list for pms is the thing i think is reasonable. lol sorry if i made that hella confusing.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 02:59:37 PM
OK, I'm going to ignore whatever AATW just wrote (I'm sure it's a riveting read) and focus on what appears to be the consensus solution.

SMF code is a pile of shit, so it might take a while to figure out the best approach.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on October 09, 2021, 03:06:48 PM
and if this was someone else's idea, AATW would be starting thread after thread about how much he hates new rules
Wow. So you really think that if someone else suggested something which I clearly agree with - given that it was my suggestion - then I’d disagree with it? ???
Seriously, why do you think so dimly of me?
You have posted publicly about how I was initially a pain in the arse but settled down to become a reasonable member of the forum.
And yet when I make what I think is a reasonable suggestion - one which you actually agree with - you start accusing me of trolling and “starting pointless drama”.
All I’ve done is start a thread in S&C, isn’t that’s the right thing to do in this situation?

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You can still see the posts of someone you ignored - you just have to click on them to reveal them.
This answers the question I asked in my other thread - I saw this post after I wrote mine.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 09, 2021, 03:16:20 PM
You're not helping your case on the drama front. Since we agreed a solution, I'm locking this thread. I'll update it when the new list is implemented.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: xasop on October 09, 2021, 04:18:23 PM
The core problem is that private messages are advertised as private. We cannot moderate messages we cannot see. If you can report a PM to a mod then the whole mod team can read it; that doesn't make it a very private message. I support adding some separate ignore list for PMs versus public forum posts, but I do not support adding public rules to private messages.
I don't entirely agree with this. Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, we wouldn't act if people were using PMs to coordinate terrorist attacks or share child pornography. Obviously we cannot allow that, so we need to have some level of moderation over what goes on in private messages. The question is just whether this particular case qualifies for moderation.

Personally, I think that for known repeat offenders, putting them in a user group that doesn't allow sending PMs is a better solution than leaving it in the hands of every recipient they might get around to harassing.
Title: Re: Abusive DMs
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 21, 2021, 10:48:12 AM
Just to keep this up to date - the PM-only block list is an absolute nightmare to implement. I've made decent progress at first, but the last few bugs are taking up a lot of time. So, this will happen, but it might not be soon.