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Offline Tom Bishop

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If you are claiming that last animated image without warping is how it should appear in RE then you must be saying that RE is false. It is clearly not the case that there is no warping of shadow shape on the real Moon during the lunar eclipse. If there was no warping on the surface of the Moon then the shadow shouldn't warp in shape on the Moon, yet it does:





The shadow on the left appears to be a smaller "Earth" and the shadow on the right appears to be a larger "Earth".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 04:55:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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The shadow on the left appears to be a smaller "Earth" and the shadow on the right appears to be a larger "Earth".

Based on what measurement or metric?
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Nearly?

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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The moon shadow in this video from the wiki:



is impossible under the EA explanation.

Remember, according to EA we are viewing the bottom of the moon.  Also, according to the WIKI, at the time of a lunar eclipse, the sun and moon are opposite the pole and the moon travels away from the sun moving out of the sun's rays momentarily.

When taking both of these into account some observations must be true.  First, the terminator must be 90 degrees to the sun with the shadow side the moon furthest from the sun.  As the moon moves away from the sun, the terminator will be created at a 90 degree angle to the position of the sun.  When you look at the video at the onset of totality, the terminator is roughly 15 deg from veritcal (actual angle isn't important) with the position of the sun needing to be on the other side of the moon from Griffith for the lit side to be facing the way it is as observed from Griffith.  This is due to the fact that, according to EA, what appears as the bottom of the moon is the part of the moon which is furthest from the viewer.  Since the lit side is at an angle that places it at the bottom of the moon, it means that the sun must be on the opposite side of the moon from Griffith.  This is not the case in the FE model as the sun must be opposite the pole from the moon.  In other words, based on the north monopole model, any observer located north of the moon's path must see the shadow of the eclipse rise from the bottom of the moon.

Now let's discuss shadow rotation from the same video.  Totality lasted roughly 1:20 at Griffith.  So the moon and sun rotated roughly 20 deg. during that time.  However, if you look at the moon shadow at the end of totality, the sun must now be position over 90 deg. different and somehow to the left rather than the right. 

An explanation of this would be interesting.

Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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This image from the WIKI:



also disproves the EA theory.

At the time of this eclipse, the moon was orbiting near the equator.  This would place a photographer in Europe well north of the moon.  As such, as the moon moves away from and out of the reach of the upward bending rays of the sun, the eclipse shadow must be formed beginning at the bottom moving up.  Clearly not the case.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Although I think your assessment is incorrect in general on where the shadow would intersects the moon, it's not as simple as asserting whether the shadow should be from one side or the other; the main reason the eclipse shadow sometimes seems to be coming from the top and the side and moves around a lot in different examples is because the face of the Moon rotates over the course of the night. See the Moon Tilt Illusion - https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 04:45:23 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Although I think your assessment is incorrect in general on where the shadow would intersects the moon, it's not as simple as asserting whether the shadow should be from one side or the other;

It really is that simple whether you believe it or not. The position and orientation of the shadow is 100% dependent on the relative positions of the sun and moon, nothing else. 


the main reason the eclipse shadow sometimes seems to be coming from the top and the side and moves around a lot in different examples is because the face of the Moon rotates over the course of the night. See the Moon Tilt Illusion - https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion

The rotation of the face of the moon would make no difference as to the position of the shadow.  Experiment for yourself.  Take a ball and shine a flashlight on it.  Now spin the ball.  Does the line of the shadow move in any way?  No.  Now move the flashlight to a different position.  Does the shadow line rotate to remain 90 deg. from the flashlight?  Yes.

I've read the WIKI Moon_Tilt_Illlusion.  In fact, I examined one of your personal photos in a discussion of the moon tilt illusion here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17742.msg234844#msg234844

The fact is that someone posted a bunch of stuff on the WIKI with tunnel vision only wanting to address a single aspect without fully understanding how things would actually work.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Yes, the shadow does rotate with the moon's face in the Moon Tilt Illusion. The phases also rotate with the face.

In your previous embedded image consider how in RE Theory the shadow could be coming in from the top-down if the observer is in Europe and the Moon is traveling East-West.

If you look at the Moon's features in that image and compare it with the Lunar selenographic coordinate system, you can clearly see that the Moon is tilted:

« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 05:50:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Yes, the shadow does rotate with the moon's face. It also affects the phases.

In your previous embedded image consider how the shadow could be coming from the top if the observer is in Europe.

The animation here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2015_lunar_eclipse illustrates in RE how the shadow would come in from the top.

The FE explanation of the eclipse as presented in the WIKI is impossible because Europe is between, though off to the side, the moon and the sun.  Because of it's position, as the moon moves out of the sun's upward bending rays, the shadow will appear predominantly from the bottom.  There will be some tilt (due to the fact that Europe is not on the straight line path between the moon and sun) and in FE that tilt would change some as the moon rotates but the shadow would still appear from the bottom up and then back down again.  It's basically simple geometry which, again, I presented to you previously in the link I attached above.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tom Bishop

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That animation on that Wikipedia page with the Moon sliding from right to left into the shadow which appears to come in from the top-down is incorrect:



It tries to explain why the shadow is coming in from the top-down. But we can see that the face of the moon is actually tilted in the eclipse:



If we compare that to the Lunar coordinate system means that the shadow is actually coming in from a Western direction to the lunar face, and is not coming in from the North of the Moon:

« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 06:07:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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That animation on the Wikipedia page with the Moon sliding from right to left into the shadow is incorrect:



It tries to explain why the shadow is coming in from the top-down. But we can see that the face of the moon is actually tilted in the eclipse:



If we compare that to the Lunar coordinate system means that the shadow is actually coming in from a Western direction to the lunar face, and is not coming in from the North of the Moon:



You're trying to apply RE dynamics to a discussion of FE dynamics.  The two are completely different.  Yes, there is tilt in the RE model because of the rotation of the earth.  In the FE model, tilt comes as a result of rotation about the viewer.  The results of those dynamics are completely different.  I've illustrated this to you already as linked.

Ending your attempted deflection from the topic at hand, let's get back to FE and how EA would produce a shadow on the moon.  To simplify it, let's think of a location where the middle of totality places the moon with the viewer sitting on the straight line between the sun and moon.  This person should see the shadow rise nearly straight from the bottom of the moon and then return back to the bottom of the moon.   Those off that direct line are going to see some tilt.  With an eclipse lasting a few hours, that tilt will change some.  What won't change, is that if the observer is between the moon and the sun, the shadow must come from the bottom up. 

An additional item, which I've not brought up until now is that every FE/EA lunar eclipse should be identical since the mechanism for creating them has to be identical with the only exception being the duration of totality.  That could vary.  The position and movement of the shadow must be identical in every case.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline stack

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Here's another simplified animation of the 2015 Lunar Supermoon Eclipse that shows from an RE perspective why the shadows appear as they do:


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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Wasn't going to do this, but, slow day.

Here's the illustration of how the lunar eclipse would behave to an observer positioned on the sun/moon axis at the middle of totality.  4 hour total duration.  I showed all the moons as 1/2 moons to make how the terminator would behave more obvious.



The red sun rays show how the terminator would be oriented as the moon and sun rotate the pole.  The green lines illustrate how the observer would view the moon.  Not super easy to see but the observer would see the shadow rise from the bottom with a slight tilt lit side facing left.  As totality is approached, the terminator would become more horizontal.  As we leave totality, the terminator would subside going down with lit side now rotating to observer's right.

To reiterate, every FE/EA lunar eclipse would behave this way.  There would be slight differences in degree of tilt based upon latitude of the moon's path, but the movement and rotation of the shadow would be identical for every eclipse.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 06:54:09 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tumeni

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That animation on that Wikipedia page with the Moon sliding from right to left into the shadow which appears to come in from the top-down is incorrect: It tries to explain why the shadow is coming in from the top-down. But we can see that the face of the moon is actually tilted in the eclipse:

If we compare that to the Lunar coordinate system means that the shadow is actually coming in from a Western direction to the lunar face, and is not coming in from the North of the Moon:

The animation is from the perspective of an observer aligned at a right-angle to the solar ecliptic. Practically nobody on Earth will be aligned this way. There's nothing on the Wiki to suggest it is "explaining" a top-down shadow....

The alignment of the shadow in your second image matches the shadow in the animation. They both enter the Moon's face at broadly the same area. The Moon is tilted in the photo montage because the photographer was not aligned at a perfect right-angle to the ecliptic. Take any eclipse, and compare (for instance) photos taken from American and Japan. Each sees the same eclipse, but one sees it with the shadow top down, the other with the shadow bottom up. Because they are "upside-down" in relation to each other, exactly as globe mechanics dictates.

Of course the shadow will encroach on the western edge of the Moon first, because that matches the direction of the Moon's travel.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 09:22:39 PM by Tumeni »
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?