Research
« on: March 08, 2022, 08:38:02 AM »
Hello all,

I am a wannabe writer and find the flat earth model fascinating as an intellectual exercise.  I would love to speak to you about your beliefs and, more importantly, why and how you came to reach these viewpoints.
In the interests of transparency, you should know that I am a ball earther and I am also a Christian.  I will not sermonize about my own views

If you have the time, please do let me know.  I have a few ‘boilerplate questions that I would love you to answer:

If the earth is flat, why and, to what benefit is it that the world governments are keeping this a secret?
When did the ball earth conspiracy start?
Did we go to the moon, if not why not?
Are there any real images from space?
If there is a dome, how do satellites work?
If we are under a dome, how did the dinosaurs become extinct?

As I say, I am really not looking to troll anyone, and I would never trash a belief system, especially not one I don’t fully understand. 

Have an awesome day,
RBD

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Offline Tron

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Re: Research
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2022, 09:49:17 AM »
Hi RBD,

I'm happy your exploring this subject.  I must say that when you look deep into new topics like flat earth it can be frustrating at first but gives you TONS of new ideas which may help your writing.


So, to begin, I came to FE beliefs through a combination of YouTube and animal communication followed by contimplation and testing.

I think anybody who might know the earth is flat may keep it a secret because it is for "the Greater Good".  After WW2 there is a lot of truths that people aren't ready to hear.  Not necessarily bad but just "to much".  And RE theory has existed for a long time but so have Flat Earth beliefs.

I think we went to the Moon, but I feel the photo of earth was shrunken to hide the truth that the moon is smaller and closer to earth then popularly believed. 

Generally, I feel satellites are real and most of their images are real and they orbit the sun above the earth...  I scetched some pictures of this process here:
 https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18499.0

Satellites hover above the dome which is why Earth looks round -. The Atmo-dome  causes refraction of the images.   

And lastly, I don't think all of the dinosaurs became extinct. They may have changed shape over time.   And generally the animals you see today are ancestors of the animals in the past - including us!

Thanks for being so open minded... 





« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 09:59:26 AM by MetaTron »
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Research
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2022, 06:07:58 PM »
Generally, I feel satellites are real and most of their images are real and they orbit the sun above the earth...  I scetched some pictures of this process here:
 https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18499.0

Satellites hover above the dome which is why Earth looks round -. The Atmo-dome  causes refraction of the images.   


Do you also believe the ISS is real and the images from it are real?  If so, the ISS orbits 245 miles above the earth.  My understanding is that FE belief is that the sun is 3000 (I've also heard closer to 6,000) miles above the earth.  This being the case, how is the ISS "above the dome"?
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tron

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Re: Research
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2022, 08:14:32 PM »
When I refer to the "top of the Dome" I'm referring to the top of the Exosphere which is about 6,200 miles above earth. The sun is above this altitude, but I don't have an exact number. 

Some satellites are also above the exosphere but other space craft like the ISS orbit below it.  Sorry for the confusion!


Atmo-layer info: https://www.sciencefacts.net/layers-of-atmosphere.html
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 08:36:17 PM by MetaTron »
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Research
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2022, 09:57:17 PM »
When I refer to the "top of the Dome" I'm referring to the top of the Exosphere which is about 6,200 miles above earth. The sun is above this altitude, but I don't have an exact number. 

OK.  So the ISS is in the lower 5% of the Dome so why does the earth look curved from the ISS well within the dome?
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Tron

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Re: Research
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2022, 10:55:00 PM »
It's still 240 miles of atmosphere you're looking through to see earth, which presumably is enough to bend its appearance.   

And keep in mind there are many layers of atmosphere with different properties but all of them share the same shape!  On a flat earth, they are like multiple fish-eye lenses stacked on top of one another, similar to the picture above.  It doesn't matter which lens you look through to see the same effects. 




« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 12:13:20 AM by MetaTron »
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Offline stack

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Re: Research
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2022, 01:30:18 AM »
It's still 240 miles of atmosphere you're looking through to see earth, which presumably is enough to bend its appearance.   

And keep in mind there are many layers of atmosphere with different properties but all of them share the same shape!  On a flat earth, they are like multiple fish-eye lenses stacked on top of one another, similar to the picture above.  It doesn't matter which lens you look through to see the same effects.

It seems that the refractive index drops to about 0 somewhere within the Stratosphere. Meaning there isn't any refractive effect (fish-eye effect) beyond that.

Statistical analysis of refractive index through the troposphere and the stratosphere

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Offline Tron

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Re: Research
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2022, 01:38:12 AM »
Yeah I can agree..  I watched a U2 spy plane fly at about 80,000ft/15 miles and it seemed like curvature was becoming noticable.
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Re: Research
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2022, 03:35:59 AM »
Yeah I can agree..  I watched a U2 spy plane fly at about 80,000ft/15 miles and it seemed like curvature was becoming noticable.

The issue with your fish-lens theory is that if you were looking back down at earth from way on high at a flat disk, the lens distortion wouldn’t hide continents. You’d see them all, just distorted. Look at fish-eye images and you’ll see what mean.

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Re: Research
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2022, 04:14:33 AM »
Maybe "fish-eye" lens isn't a great example.  Let's stick with the dome shaped lens.  Here's the link to a previous discussion we had on lighting effects on a FE. 

One picture is a flat earth map with a glass dome lens and the other w/o a lens.  Notice how the picture with the lens hides the outer continents and magnifies the inner continents giving it the illusion of being a spherical image.

 https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18506.msg245535#msg245535
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?

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Re: Research
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 06:14:35 AM »
Maybe "fish-eye" lens isn't a great example.  Let's stick with the dome shaped lens.  Here's the link to a previous discussion we had on lighting effects on a FE. 

One picture is a flat earth map with a glass dome lens and the other w/o a lens.  Notice how the picture with the lens hides the outer continents and magnifies the inner continents giving it the illusion of being a spherical image.

 https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18506.msg245535#msg245535

In that image, is it a dome or a solid hunk of glass magnifier? If the latter, your "dome" over earth would squash us all. In other words, your simulation is not tenable. Try putting an upside down glass bowl over it if you want to simulate a "dome".

Re: Research
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2022, 06:38:17 AM »
Trying to stick to the theme of the OP and not getting sidetracked into specifics what I find bewildering is why make all this stuff up?  Metatron certainly get high marks for imagination and inconsistency but why bother?  The standard model of mass warping space so as to form into spheres with planets orbiting suns etc explains what we observe.  Why invent all this cray stuff with all sorts of unknown forces and mechanisms mostly unique to the earth and yet even with all that not being consistent with actual observation and needing vast conspiracies on top of it all?  I'm hard pressed to think anyone actually thinks the FE claims or models are true but instead just enjoys claiming that they do.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 06:41:04 AM by ichoosereality »
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Re: Research
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2022, 07:01:34 AM »
Wow! thank you so much guys,  this is fascinating.  Just as a matter of interest do you hold other 'unusual' beliefs, or is it just the FE?

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Re: Research
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2022, 06:59:32 PM »
Wow! thank you so much guys,  this is fascinating.  Just as a matter of interest do you hold other 'unusual' beliefs, or is it just the FE?

Great question. You may want to check out a book that just came out last week called, 'Off the Edge: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Culture, and Why People Will Believe Anything', by Kelly Weill. She draws a lot of connections between other 'unusual' beliefs (mostly Conspiracy Theories) and Flat Earth belief.

A Mod here at this Society, Pete Svarrior, is quoted in it several times. 

There's also, 'Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea', by Christine Garwood & from a long-time FE researcher, not FE himself, but very well connected to the movement over the years, '', 'THE PLANE TRUTH A HISTORY OF THE FLAT-EARTH MOVEMENT' by Robert J. Schadewald.

Some source material, 'Zetetic Astronomy: Earth Not a Globe' by Parallax (Samuel Birley Rowbotham)
[1881].

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Research
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2022, 07:39:56 PM »
A Mod here at this Society, Pete Svarrior, is quoted in it several times.
I'm sure she had nothing but good things to say about me, given our... history.

The book is not yet available where I am, although I have it on pre-order. I hope to review it once I've read it.

EDIT: Turns out it's not available on Amazon, and most UK stores, but some do offer it early. I have now cancelled my blood pact with Jeff Bezos and ordered it from a store that doesn't suck.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 07:49:29 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Re: Research
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2022, 07:48:46 PM »
A Mod here at this Society, Pete Svarrior, is quoted in it several times.
I'm sure she had nothing but good things to say about me, given our... history.

The book is not yet available where I am, although I have it on pre-order. I hope to review it once I've read it.

I'm about a third of the way through it. So far, I think you're quoted about three times. Your quotes don't show up in the disparaging column, as it were. Pretty benign. Mostly she points out a lot of the historical backlash against the Society(s) from the DuBay/YouTube FE crowd.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Research
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2022, 07:59:12 PM »
Your quotes don't show up in the disparaging column, as it were.
Glad to hear it. We did clash a couple times, mostly on subjects of FE history, but every time I spoke to her for a Daily Beast interview, she did her best to be fair and impartial.

I'll withhold any final judgement until I've had a chance to read the book, but overall I'd say Weill is worth paying attention to, based on her genuine interest in the subject and willingness to do honest journalism without taking shortcuts (looking at 80% of media outlets I interacted with here)
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Re: Research
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2022, 08:18:34 PM »
Your quotes don't show up in the disparaging column, as it were.
Glad to hear it. We did clash a couple times, mostly on subjects of FE history, but every time I spoke to her for a Daily Beast interview, she did her best to be fair and impartial.

I'll withhold any final judgement until I've had a chance to read the book, but overall I'd say Weill is worth paying attention to, based on her genuine interest in the subject and willingness to do honest journalism without taking shortcuts (looking at 80% of media outlets I interacted with here)

My hot-take so far is that she takes more of an issue with that element of FE that is hardcore right/conseravtive, almost militant, biblical, with antisemitism leanings and how conspiracy theories are a gateway into something like FE and FE may be a gateway into other, more extreme beliefs/conspiracies like the aforementioned.

Though, one could argue that all movements have their extreme elements.

Re: Research
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2022, 03:43:14 PM »
First of all, thank you all very much for helping me so far, I really apricate it! 😊

If it’s not too personal of a question, may I ask, are FE believers usually people of faith, if so are they generally literal creationists?

Also, I have noticed that a lot of you are quite right-wing/libertarian, would that be a fair assessment in your eyes?

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Re: Research
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2022, 05:09:13 PM »
I don't want to speak for other FEr's, but I'd consider myself a Theist.  And politically, a Freethinker.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 05:12:07 PM by MetaTron »
What if the Earth is flat but looks round?