[Snupes]

However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games.

Ok? Are you going to follow up on this or...? Just saying something does not make it so.

And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.

Getting good at a platformer requires memorization. That's part of the genre. Are you saying that SNES Mario games are poorly designed too?

I'm great at Sonic games

Obviously not.

Some people are just not good at platformers. I forgive you. Sticking with SA 1 & 2 is probably a good idea for you.

Sure, when I'm not on my phone I'll go into it a bit more, but Blanko and Vindictus are doing a pretty good job so far. I'm more addressing the tones of your posts than any actual content.

Mario does not require memorization. Once you understand the rules of a Mario game, you can play the whole game though there will be varying difficulty levels. No memorization is required, however.

And wow sick burn bro, glad to see you eschewing content in favour of very creative, original and hurtful insults :^)

[Ghost of V]

Sure, when I'm not on my phone I'll go into it a bit more, but Blanko and Vindictus are doing a pretty good job so far. I'm more addressing the tones of your posts than any actual content.

Mario does not require memorization. Once you understand the rules of a Mario game, you can play the whole game though there will be varying difficulty levels. No memorization is required, however.

And wow sick burn bro, glad to see you eschewing content in favour of very creative, original and hurtful insults :^)

I don't know what you're on about. 16bit Mario is much harder than 16bit Sonic. It's easier to die, it's easier to fall in pits, etc. First time playing a Mario game: you're going to die a lot. Same with Sonic. Memorization helps you not die. Mastering a Mario game requires memorization. If you don't agree with that then... I don't know what to tell you.. Sure, you can beat Mario without memorizing the levels. But, hey, you can beat Sonic without memorizing the levels too. However, if you truly want to master the levels in either series, you have to memorize them or have super human reflexes. Also, beating a Sonic game is a fairly quick thing to do if you know what you're doing. The game was designed to be somewhat difficult to extend the length of the game. This applies to every platformer, like I've been saying.

My insult stems from that fact that you were the one that provided no content. Just claims. I'm just returning the favor. At least I have a valid counter-argument to most of the negatives detailed in this discussion.'

It seems like you all have gripes with the platforming genre as a whole, not specifically Sonic.

[Blanko]

Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?

That is entirely what Sonic is based on. You rarely have to come to a complete stop in 2D Sonic games. If you are, you're doing something wrong. You can breeze through most levels by jumping over every damn obstacle in the game, bouncing off enemies the whole way. I know this is true because I have done it. I don't think Blanko even said "come to a complete stop", he just said that the game is designed around impeding your speed... which it kind of is.

...But it does make you come to a complete stop, and does so often. There's a lot of places where you have to wait for a moving platform, or wait for a moving obstacle to get out of the way. These serve absolutely no purpose for going fast, nor do they offer any sort of challenge. And when you bump into an enemy or a spike, you do in fact come to a complete stop.

The game is a platformer at heart; it was made to compete with Mario. If we compare it to Mario, then Mario is just as shitty... if not worse. Who ever wants to come to a complete stop in any game? Yet, almost every game has you coming to some sort of stop at points.

But see, Mario is not about going fast, and as such is not failing at succeeding in its design goals. Even when you do go fast, you're given much more of an opportunity to see what's ahead of you.

Going fast in Sonic games is a given, sure, but since the game is a platformer it naturally has to conform with some of the archaic conventions of the genre.

No, it doesn't. That's where the whole issue in its design arises, it takes conventions from games that don't make you go at nearly as high speeds. If you want to make a conventional platformer, then use conventional gameplay mechanics as well.

If I die to something I can't see, then yeah.

What? You know that rolling kills most enemies with the exception of armored ones, right? I could understand your argument if it was typical in Sonic games to just run off a ledge and die, but that is not typical at all. The ring system is also VERY generous with keeping you alive so that you can continue to go fast.

You do realize that not dying doesn't make the design approach any better, right? In fact, all this time you've argued as if the main issue with the games is that they're too hard when nobody suggested that they're hard at all. I'm talking about the inability for a first-time player to play the game fluidly and "as intended", and for some reason you took that as "dying". It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".

[beardo]

BLAST PROCESSING!

[rooster]

It's true that it is a speedrun game, but I don't see why that means it's awful. I personally don't have a terrible time learning sonic levels, I think it's part of the fun.

Who says it was even intended to be played through without memorization? I thought the challenge was more in beating your previous times.

[Ghost of V]

It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".

Not really. I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument. Of course it's harder for newcomers. I don't see how this is even a valid point. The more you play, the better you get, the less you die, the less you get hit by enemies, etc. Guess what... this applies to every fucking game ever made.

Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game your first time without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun. The great thing about Sonic and other platformers is that the more you memorize the levels, the btter you get at the game and the faster you can complete the game. That's the point. There are supposed to be obstacles in the way of your success.

I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games. Please show me where Sonic was advertised as a game where you are constantly running faster than the speed of light 100% of the time. The promotional material for Sonic just simply implied that Sonic was fast as shit, that's it. "Blast Processing, our game runs fast and smoothly, watch Sonic run around quickly". That's about it. I'm sorry that the game doesn't conform to your personal opinion on how it should play, but that doesn't mean the game is terrible by any means. You simply don't enjoy playing Sonic games. That's fine, but saying that the games themselves are bad because you suck at them or whatever is just stupid.

[Blanko]

I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument.

Nobody made that argument.

Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it your points. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun at all.

So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

Are you really sure you want to go there?

And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games.

And even when it's only a part of it, it still does it better than Sonic. Funny, that.

It's true that it is a speedrun game, but I don't see why that means it's awful. I personally don't have a terrible time learning sonic levels, I think it's part of the fun.

Who says it was even intended to be played through without memorization? I thought the challenge was more in beating your previous times.

The problem with this is that Sonic primarily presents you with completion-hindering challenges, not so much speed-hindering challenges. This means that simply knowing when to jump over an obstacle is all you need to optimize your speed, which is not particularly interesting for speedrunning. It's pretty easy to get baited into thinking that raw speed = speedrunning potential, when the opposite is often the case. In Sonic, for long stretches of levels the optimal speed you can gain is by simply holding right. If Sonic was about building momentum rather than preserving it, then it might be better suited as a "speedrun game".

[Particle Person]

It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".

Not really. I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument. Of course it's harder for newcomers. I don't see how this is even a valid point. The more you play, the better you get, the less you die, the less you get hit by enemies, etc. Guess what... this applies to every fucking game ever made.

Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game your first time without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun. The great thing about Sonic and other platformers is that the more you memorize the levels, the btter you get at the game and the faster you can complete the game. That's the point. There are supposed to be obstacles in the way of your success.

I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games. Please show me where Sonic was advertised as a game where you are constantly running faster than the speed of light 100% of the time. The promotional material for Sonic just simply implied that Sonic was fast as shit, that's it. "Blast Processing, our game runs fast and smoothly, watch Sonic run around quickly". That's about it. I'm sorry that the game doesn't conform to your personal opinion on how it should play, but that doesn't mean the game is terrible by any means. You simply don't enjoy playing Sonic games. That's fine, but saying that the games themselves are bad because you suck at them or whatever is just stupid.

I hope I don't look this stupid when I'm defending Morrowings.

[rooster]

I love holding right.

[Ghost of V]

So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

You're the one claiming they are game breaking flaws. I have said nothing of the sort.


Regarding your other claims... please provide some examples besides "having to stop for platforms".

[Blanko]

So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

You're the one claiming they are game breaking flaws. I have said nothing of the sort.

Flawed design is flawed design. You're having a hard time accepting that it's even that.

Regarding your other claims... please provide some examples besides "having to stop for platforms".

Before you edited that, I would have said Generations. But now I don't know what you want me to say.

[Ghost of V]

Flawed design is flawed design. You're having a hard time accepting that it's even that.

Alright. So we've confirmed that you think Sonic is bad because you have to wait on platforms. Cool.

Anyone have a coherent opinion they'd like to share?

[Blanko]

Alright. So we've confirmed that you think Sonic is bad because you have to wait on platforms. Cool.

Yes, and also due to the other stuff I said.

Anyone have a coherent opinion they'd like to share?

As a sidenote, I'd like to say that you remind me a lot of Rushy.

[Ghost of V]

Yes, and also due to the other stuff I said.

Stopping. Off-screen enemies. Basic platformer conventions. I have it all covered, right?

As a sidenote, I'd like to say that you remind me a lot of Rushy.

I'll take that as a compliment. 

[Blanko]

Stopping. Off-screen enemies. Basic platformer conventions. I have it all covered, right?

That's the gist of it, yeah.

I'll take that as a compliment. 

ok...

[Ghost of V]

Who would have thought that a platformer has platforms in it. Fuck me, right?

[Blanko]

Okay, that's not part of the things you just listed... but regarding that, it's not like Sonic can't have platforms, it's that they're designed around not going fast. It would be interesting if they were spaced out so you were required to maintain a certain level of momentum in order to make the jumps between them. You know, so it would actually reward you for going fast and still be sort of challenging!

Nope, let's just put loop-de-loops everywhere.

[Ghost of V]

Platforms were a big part of your argument.

It would be interesting if they were spaced out so you were required to maintain a certain level of momentum in order to make the jumps between them.

That's how most of them are, actually.

Sonic 3: Act 2 of Stage 1

Most platforms are used to get you to a higher part of the level, so that you can run down it later on in the level or it just leads to a completely different part of the zone. Most platforms you can just skip completely if you choose to go a different route. Many of the platforms lead to a powerup, therefore rewarding you for the wait. Pretty neat level-design, huh? Nothing is entirely pointless here. If you disagree, please circle the parts you think are unnecessary and draw in your improvements. I'd love to see them.

[Blanko]

It feels like you're only talking about S&K here. Anyway, that's not really what I'm talking about. I mean shit like you see in speedruns where you're running above the entire level and crossing half of a level with a single jump with the massive momentum you have. You know, shit that you're not actually supposed to do. Most of that level looks like precision platforming that doesn't allow for maximum momentum to be sustained.

[Blanko]

Also, I just realized that sanicfan98 wasn't an ironic alt #mindblown