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Offline QED

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Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« on: April 21, 2019, 02:45:37 AM »
Below is the ice wall picture from the wiki. I am hoping to receive input on whether this is the evidence mentioned for an ice wall existing (from previous threads). I could not find another pic on the wiki for it.

If this is the photo, I would love to ask:

1. How did you acquire it?
2. It appears as those the ice wall borders Antarctica on the coast! Is my interpretation correct?
3. Of the above is true, then this is verifiable information. Ships and planes can verify it without crossing an unknown distance into the continent.

So that it is not misunderstood, I wish to indicate that my queries are genuine, and ones I could not find answers for on the wiki.

I mean in no way, shape, or form to be mocking or insulting with these queries. I do believe their answers to be of high scientific importance.

Although I do err on occasion, it is my intention to keep chicanery limited to AR/CN.

The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2019, 11:53:33 AM »
I am hoping to receive input on whether this is the evidence mentioned for an ice wall existing
As per the FAQ, we lend very little credibility to photographs, and I wouldn't call it evidence. A "visual aid" would be a better term. Unfortunately, many of those on the other side of the debate repeatedly demand this photo (or similar ones), so we've included it.

1. How did you acquire it?
I'm not sure. It's been there for the better part of a decade. My suspicion is that it was one of Google search results for what you would call one of the ice shelves. Funnily enough, this has become difficult to verify, since virtually all sources that still host this image are Flat Earth ones, many of which credit us as the source.

2. It appears as those the ice wall borders Antarctica on the coast! Is my interpretation correct?
The words "Antarctica" and "the Ice Wall" are interchangeable. Whether the Ice Wall borders itself is a question I'll leave to theorists and philosophers.

3. Of the above is true, then this is verifiable information. Ships and planes can verify it without crossing an unknown distance into the continent.
Indeed, anyone can witness the Antarctic coast and see that it exists. Many people have done so, which is why visual aids are easily accessible.
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2019, 08:16:48 PM »
Below is the ice wall picture from the wiki. I am hoping to receive input on whether this is the evidence mentioned for an ice wall existing (from previous threads). I could not find another pic on the wiki for it.

If this is the photo, I would love to ask:

1. How did you acquire it?
2. It appears as those the ice wall borders Antarctica on the coast! Is my interpretation correct?
3. Of the above is true, then this is verifiable information. Ships and planes can verify it without crossing an unknown distance into the continent.

So that it is not misunderstood, I wish to indicate that my queries are genuine, and ones I could not find answers for on the wiki.

I mean in no way, shape, or form to be mocking or insulting with these queries. I do believe their answers to be of high scientific importance.

Although I do err on occasion, it is my intention to keep chicanery limited to AR/CN.



That photo is the B-15 Iceberg, which was once the biggest floating object on Earth. It was bigger than Jamaica at one point.

No Ice Wall at sight.

Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2019, 10:02:19 PM »
I am hoping to receive input on whether this is the evidence mentioned for an ice wall existing
As per the FAQ, we lend very little credibility to photographs, and I wouldn't call it evidence. A "visual aid" would be a better term. Unfortunately, many of those on the other side of the debate repeatedly demand this photo (or similar ones), so we've included it.

1. How did you acquire it?
I'm not sure. It's been there for the better part of a decade. My suspicion is that it was one of Google search results for what you would call one of the ice shelves. Funnily enough, this has become difficult to verify, since virtually all sources that still host this image are Flat Earth ones, many of which credit us as the source.

Well sorry Pete, but rodriados is right. That photo is of the B-15A iceberg, not the Ice Wall. Here's the source: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/OperationAntarctica/operationantarctica4.php

This site seems to be as close to the original source as you can get, after perusing the AMRC/AWC iceberg images (the original source), it appears to be gone. How ironic it turns out to be a NASA archive.
We are smarter than those scientists.
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

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Offline QED

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2019, 10:30:07 PM »
Pete did not claim this was a picture of the the ice wall, so the rebuttal against him is unfair. He clearly stated that it served as a visual aid and the FES does not lend much credibility to photographs.

Pete: I think I am confused still. It was my understanding that you said photographic evidence exists for the ice wall, and that it was commonly known. I get that this picture is not considered to be that. So I am under the impression that I misunderstood you. Can you confirm whether such pictures FES considers accurate do or do not exist?

If it does exist, I would be grateful for the link.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2019, 12:27:36 AM »
It was my understanding that you said photographic evidence exists for the ice wall, and that it was commonly known.
I don't think I said that. I said that there's an abundance of evidence, and that Antarctica can be plainly seen by anyone who wishes to see it. What I didn't say is that it would take some resources, but I'm sure you'll find it in you to forgive me this logistical omission.

Can you confirm whether such pictures FES considers accurate do or do not exist?

If it does exist, I would be grateful for the link.
Photographs of Antarctica do exist. Since I have personally not taken any, I will not make a personal recommendation. Perhaps in a the distant future, though...

That said, it's interesting to find out that this photograph only represents a former part of the Ice Wall. I would be keen to replace it with a more recent photo of the Ross Ice Shelf proper, but I'll hold back on that until I'm able to acquire one from a source I can trust (in other words, we'll likely be waiting indefinitely)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 12:35:05 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2019, 02:46:10 AM »
Yes of course. Insisting on it would be pedantic. I simply must have misunderstood your statement, but it is clear now.

I too look forward to a reputable source in the future of any evidence which addresses the ice wall issue. Irrespective of the conclusion.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2019, 05:55:17 AM »
This was discussed a couple of years ago.

That would really depend whether Iceberg B-15A was run aground on November 15th, 2000, the date the picture was taken according to the exif data. If it was run aground or touching the coast in any manner then it can be classified as the coast of Antarctica. According to the wikipedia page the Iceberg B-15 started cracking/calving in 2000, but B-15A isn't mentioned as drifting away until November 2003. The high altitude picture you provided was taken in 2006.

Since it appears that the Iceberg was still touching Antarctica at the time the picture was taken, the picture stays.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2019, 06:59:29 AM »
it's interesting to find out that this photograph only represents a former part of the Ice Wall.

That’s an interesting turn of phrase.
Former part of the Ice Wall.

I thought in the most common FE model the Ice Wall went all the way around the world. I didn’t think bits of it could randomly break off, doesn’t it keep the oceans in?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2019, 11:06:03 AM »
I didn’t think bits of it could randomly break off, doesn’t it keep the oceans in?
"Randomly"? In this case it was part of a natural cycle, by the looks of it.

Are you telling me, in a world plagued with climate change, that it surprises you that a large iceberg calved from the Ross Ice Shelf? It's probably going to start happening more often, y'know.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 11:11:03 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2019, 01:19:28 PM »
Are you telling me, in a world plagued with climate change, that it surprises you that a large iceberg calved from the Ross Ice Shelf?
No. I’m telling you that the Ross Ice Shelf isn’t the “Ice Wall” which is commonly claimed to encircle the earth in FE models.

Ross is quoted in your Wiki as stating it to be impassible. But that quote is from the 19th century when he first discovered it.

Roald Amundsen and Scott crossed the shelf to reach the Pole in 1911. It’s just part of Antarctica.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2019, 03:09:47 PM »
No. I’m telling you that the Ross Ice Shelf isn’t the “Ice Wall” which is commonly claimed to encircle the earth in FE models.
Please remember that just stating you think RET is correct is not a useful argument in the upper fora.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2019, 03:19:12 PM »
No. I’m telling you that the Ross Ice Shelf isn’t the “Ice Wall” which is commonly claimed to encircle the earth in FE models.
Please remember that just stating you think RET is correct is not a useful argument in the upper fora.
He has a point though insofar as 'The Ice Wall' wiki page could maybe do with some touchups. I mean like "How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply." Really? There have been literally hundreds of people that have gone past 'The Ice Wall' described by Sir Ross. I mean, you can fall back on 'they're all liars' if the wiki so chooses, or maybe you want to remove Ross' comment to make just what is being reference a bit more vague, but it seems the wiki could do with a bit of assistance in that regard. But I also just don't think the monopole 'model' does FE any favors at this point.

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2019, 04:27:53 PM »
No. I’m telling you that the Ross Ice Shelf isn’t the “Ice Wall” which is commonly claimed to encircle the earth in FE models.
Please remember that just stating you think RET is correct is not a useful argument in the upper fora.
As usual you provide no argument at all.

But this is nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Your collective claim is that there is a wall of ice around the flat earth.
But in the Wiki you go on to claim that:

Quote
Along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot Ice Wall. The 150 foot Ice Wall is on the coast of Antarctica. The Ice Wall is a massive wall of ice that surrounds Antarctica. The shelf of ice is several hundred meters thick. This nearly vertical ice front to the open sea is more than 50 meters high above the water's surface.
The Ice Wall was discovered by Sir James Clark Ross, a British Naval Officer and polar explorer who was among the first to venture to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the South Magnetic Pole.

You then quote his remark about it being impassable from the mid 19th century and then say:

Quote
Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply

...but it's not anyone's guess. Ross might well not have found a way to get past the ice shelf but other people subsequently did.

Quote
With its immense, gently undulating surface reaching back nearly 600 miles (950 km) southward into the heart of Antarctica, the Ross Ice Shelf provides the best surface approach into the continental interior. The McMurdo Sound region on the shelf’s western edge thus became the headquarters for Robert F. Scott’s 1911–12 epic sledging trip to the South Pole and also served several Antarctic research programs later in the century. The eastern barrier regions of the ice shelf were headquarters for the Norwegian Roald Amundsen’s first attainment of the South Pole on Dec. 14, 1911; for Richard E. Byrd’s three U.S. expeditions of 1928–41 at Little America I–III stations; and for several subsequent expeditions and research programs.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Ross-Ice-Shelf

Is the FE claim that all of this is fake and part of the big conspiracy? You just have to do a Google image search for "route to the south pole and you'll find loads of images from different expeditions which start at the Ross ice shelf.

None of this proves the earth is a globe, on your Wiki there's a nod to the bi-polar model.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Antarctica

Antarctica could well be a continent as claimed and there could also be an ice wall going round a flat earth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2019, 06:07:09 PM »
As usual you provide no argument at all.
Indeed, that was a moderation comment. It would be unwise to interweave it with an argument.

...but it's not anyone's guess. Ross might well not have found a way to get past the ice shelf but other people subsequently did.
So, you have evidence that people explored beyond the known parts of Antarctica? This is revolutionary stuff.

Of course, that's not what you're saying. You're saying you think Antarctica is as described in RET. I'm sure you understand the futility of just stating that.
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Offline QED

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2019, 07:18:39 PM »
I see two competing ideas:

1. There is an ice wall, and folks have been there to confirm.

2. There is not an ice wall, and folks have been there to confirm. 

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence forthcoming for #1, and Pete has confirmed to me that the picture is meant as a visual aid which he does not believe is literal.

There is evidence for #2, and pictures, videos can be found. There is a laboratory there for cosmic rays. Members of my own family have visited the continent.

I recognize that this evidence is rejected in the current conversation. But I also ask: what is the FE argument? Since no evidence has been presented in this thread yet, only the bare claim exists (#1). In my understanding, a claim must be twinned with evidence to form an argument.

In this fashion, a RE rebuttal which states “what is your argument” is a literal logical challenge quite appropriate and relevant in the present context. A FE rebuttal which states the same does not make sense, because the evidence for the claim has been presented (and rejected - but still presented).

I think it is possible to use logic to aid conflict in arguments, and in the context of the current discussion, it appears relevant for parsing competing ideas about whether the ice wall does or does not exist. Thoughts?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2019, 07:49:12 PM »
What about this? 

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacier-processes/glacial-lakes/subglacial-lakes/

There are over 280 mapped subglacial lakes. An abundant number of them occur within the middle of the Antarctic continent. This to me would prove that Antarctica has been explored well enough to determine that it is not an ice wall.

Here are expected FE rebuttals:

1) Mapping of the locations has been changed to fit a globe GPS location.
2) This is fake - or data does not actually exist, or their equipment was measuring something else - along with the location data being wrong or faked.
3) Satellites don't exist (which is commonly turned into - "its all high altitude aerial photography")
4) NASA was mentioned in the article - therefore it is fake, fudged, or intentionally misleading.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2019, 11:01:00 PM »
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence forthcoming for #1, and Pete has confirmed to me that the picture is meant as a visual aid which he does not believe is literal.

There is evidence for #2, and pictures, videos can be found.
It's extremely discourteous of you to apply two different standards of evidence depending on which side you want to support. Either you agree with me that photographic material is not evidence for the purpose of this debate, or you don't. Pick one, and stick with it.

I also never said that "I don't believe for the photographs to be literal", to my knowledge, and frankly I don't see how a photograph could be anything but literal.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 11:05:00 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2019, 11:38:53 PM »
On the contrary, I enjoy applying equal standards to both sides. Moreover, if you read my reply carefully you may note that I distinguish between evidence and acceptance of it. You have dismissed the RE evidence, as is you prerogative. Also, you indicated that the wiki photo was more of a visual aid than a piece of evidence, and did not think any direct evidence would be forthcoming that you trust in the immediate future. I can quote the sentences in particular if you’d like. Have you changed your mind on this position?

The two options you have provided to me for photographic evidence are not a true dichotomy. There is a third that I see: evaluate each piece of photographic evidence on its own merits, rather than believing all or none. This is the position that I hold.

I have seen photographs of family members on this continent. That is compelling to me. I do apologize for not sharing them with the FES, and would do so if they were not personal information. Of course, I would not expect you to grant any credence to my claim here, I merely am providing an example for what photographic evidence is compelling to me and what is not.

I would consider the wiki picture not compelling, as its origin is in dispute, and appears to be a well-known ice-shelf rather than an ice wall.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2019, 11:47:29 PM »
The two options you have provided to me for photographic evidence are not a true dichotomy. There is a third that I see: evaluate each piece of photographic evidence on its own merits, rather than believing all or none. This is the position that I hold.
Then you disagree with me, and consider photographic material to be evidence, and should be doing so consistently. In that case, you have a whole lot of ice shelf photography to deal with. But that's your problem - you set a silly standard for yourself.
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