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Messages - Tom Bishop

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21
Science & Alternative Science / Re: New Report on WTC 7
« on: February 19, 2024, 02:29:58 AM »
Jimmy Dore and his show are known to spew or carry conspiracy theories about various topics. Caution should be given to falling down the proverbial conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

The collapse of the 9/11 buildings (also falling directly onto their own footprint) was caused by nothing more than a group of terrorists that flew two commercial airliners (each carrying tens of thousands of kerosene jet full) through two buildings that instantly severed and compromised the buildings structures causing them to collapse when the structural integrity was compromised further by burning jet fuel. The collapse of the buildings and the buildings fires further compromised adjacent structures such as WTC 7. It was a domino effect.       

See attached. 
https://www.nist.gov/pao/questions-and-answers-about-nist-wtc-7-investigation

"Some people have said that a failure at one column should not have produced a symmetrical fall like this one. What's your answer to those assertions?

WTC 7's collapse, viewed from the exterior (most videos were taken from the north), did appear to fall almost uniformly as a single unit. This occurred because the interior failures that took place did not cause the exterior framing to fail until the final stages of the building collapse. The interior floor framing and columns collapsed downward and pulled away from the exterior frame. There were clues that internal damage was taking place, prior to the downward movement of the exterior frame, such as when the east penthouse fell downward into the building and windows broke out on the north face at the ends of the building core. The symmetric appearance of the downward fall of the WTC 7 was primarily due to the greater stiffness and strength of its exterior frame relative to the interior framing."
     

Also from NIST:

https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-7-investigation

Quote
25. The simulation of the collapse modeling of WTC 7 does not match the video footage of the collapse. In particular, the large inward deformations of the upper exterior walls after the beginning of global collapse are not visible in the video footage. Can NIST explain the difference between the results of its computer model of the collapse and the available video evidence?

NIST conducted two global collapse analyses, one that included damage due to debris impact from the collapse of WTC 1, and one that did not include any debris-impact damage. These two analyses were conducted to determine the influence of the debris-impact damage on the response of WTC 7 when subjected to the effects of the fires that burned on floors 7 to 9 and 11 to 13. In its comparison of the two analyses (see NIST NCSTAR 1A Section 3.5), NIST showed that the analysis with the debris-impact damage better simulated the sequence of observed events, and it is this simulation that is considered here.

NIST believes that the simulation of the collapse, based on the analysis with debris-impact damage, does capture the critical observations derived from the digital video recording. The critical observations and corresponding failures identified in the structural analysis include: 1) east-west motion of the building beginning at approximately the same time as failure of floors 6 through 14 around Column 79, 2) the formation of the "kink" in the roofline of the east penthouse approximately one second after Column 79 was found to buckle, 3) window breakage on the east side of the north face as the buckling of Column 79 precipitated the failure of upper floors, and 4) the beginning of global collapse (vertical drop of the building exterior) within approximately one-half second of the time predicted by analysis. Both measured time and analytically predicted time, from the start of failures of floors surrounding Column 79 to the initial downward motion of the north face roofline, was 12.9 seconds (see NIST NCSTAR Report 1A, Table 3-1). The collapse observations, from video analysis of the CBS News Archive video, are covered in detail in NIST NCSTAR Report 1A Section 3.5 and NIST NCSTAR Report 1-9, Section 8.3. Only in the later stages of the animation, after the initiation of global collapse, do the upper exterior wall deformations from the NIST analysis differ from the video images.

Uncertainties associated with the approach taken by NIST are addressed in NIST NCSTAR Report 1A, Section 3.5, where it is noted, "Once simulation of the global collapse of WTC 7 was underway, there was a great increase in the uncertainty in the progression of the collapse sequence, due to the random nature of the interaction, break up, disintegration, and falling debris." The contribution to stiffness and strength of nonstructural materials and components, such as exterior cladding, interior walls and partitions, was not considered in the analyses conducted by NIST. It is well known that such non-structural components can increase the stiffness and strength of a structural system, but their contribution is difficult to quantify. Given these factors, disparities between the video and the animation in the later stages of collapse would be expected.

See bolded. In other words the NIST couldn't simulate an event where the exterior falls together. It says that events "after the initiation of the global collapse" the simulation differs.

They then give a series of excuses for why they can't simulate it, oddly while their other answers champion their simulation as a general proof.

Also, this is funny:

Quote
Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?

Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event.

...

Did fuel oil systems in WTC 7 contribute to its collapse?

No. The building had three separate emergency power systems, all of which ran on diesel fuel. The worst-case scenarios associated with fires being fed by ruptured fuel lines-or from fuel stored in day tanks on the lower floors-could not have been sustained long enough, could not have generated sufficient heat to weaken critical interior columns, and/or would have produced large amounts of visible smoke from the lower floors, which were not observed.

...


Is it possible that thermite or thermate contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?

NIST has looked at the application and use of thermite and has determined that its use to sever columns in WTC 7 on 9/11/01 was unlikely.

...

What about claims that the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) found metallic residues that are evidence of thermite in dust and air samples, respectively, taken from the WTC area after Sept. 11, 2001?

There has not been any conclusive evidence presented to indicate that highly reactive pyrotechnic material was present in the debris of WTC 7.

...

NIST's entire investigation included no physical evidence. How can the investigators be so sure they know what happened?

In general, much less evidence existed for WTC 7 than for the two WTC towers. The steel for WTC 1 and WTC 2 contained distinguishing characteristics that enabled it to be identified once removed from the site during recovery efforts. However, the same was not true for the WTC 7 steel. Certainly, there is a lot less visual and audio evidence of the WTC 7 collapse compared to the collapses of the WTC 1 and WTC 2 towers, which were much more widely photographed.

Nonetheless, the NIST investigation of WTC 7 is based on a huge amount of data. These data come from extensive research, interviews, and studies of the building, including audio and video recordings of the collapse. Rigorous, state-of-the-art computer methods were designed to study and model the building's collapse. These validated computer models produced a collapse sequence that was confirmed by observations of what actually occurred. In addition to using its in-house expertise, NIST relied upon private-sector technical experts; accumulated copious documents, photographs and videos of this disaster; conducted first-person interviews of building occupants and emergency responders; analyzed the evacuation and emergency response operations in and around WTC 7; performed computer simulations of the behavior of WTC 7 on Sept. 11, 2001; and combined the knowledge gained into a probable collapse sequence.

The NIST investigation included no actual physical evidence and their analysis is based on some theories.

And in regards to their theories, the answer here claims that their computer models "produced a collapse sequence that was confirmed by observations of what actually occurred" despite a previous answer which says that their model of the exterior behavior does not match observation.

22
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden
« on: February 16, 2024, 12:03:22 PM »
Liberals aren't looking too confident about this to me. Apparently The Atlantic is shocked that Joe Biden would put his own self-regard ahead of the good of the country. They are begging for the DNC to pick a new candidate.


23
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 14, 2024, 04:00:32 PM »
Not sure why you are simping for these people. I have not seen any evidence from you that NATO alliances are sacrosanct. They are hanger-ons, hoping to take advantage of others for their own benefit. If they are stealing from NATO by getting benefit and not paying then they can get invaded for all I care.

24
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 14, 2024, 05:52:01 AM »
By the nature of how this NATO military funding works, if you are not giving then you are stealing. So yes, then Russia can invade the theives.

25
Science & Alternative Science / The Science of Forgiveness
« on: February 14, 2024, 01:42:00 AM »
I have recently begun studying a form of alternative science which has received more dismissal and derision in our culture than both Homeopathy and Astrology combined. It is barely given validity outside of certain religious venues despite being a long-known concept in general. This is the science of forgiveness.

There is a disease of hate and judgment which plagues mankind. The only remedy to cure this is through a fundamental philosophical breakthrough within your own self. Your judgmental self is the barrier to many of your psychological ills, which even manifests into the physiological.

The forgiveness philosophy is a way to help yourself through what is essentially a form spiritual enlightenment. Even if you don't believe in anything spiritual, it will help break through the basis of your issues. There are a series of books such as The Power of NOW, the Disappearance of the Universe, and A Return to Love, which are all supplements to the philosophy of a seminal work written in the 1970's called A Course in Miracles. The Disappearance of the Universe book is a good primer with unique background and essential world-building information which makes A Course in Miracles more understandable and I would recommend reading it.

The essential tenet of this philosophy is that you can heal your judgmental self within you - your ego - through the power of forgiveness. You need to start on a journey of forgiveness and forgive the people who have wronged you, forgive the people who annoy you, and who you perceive to do wrong. Their nature is not truly their fault, after all. Go further to even forgive your loved ones who have died on you, and go further on a forgiveness adventure to forgive the world and all its ills. As you let go of all of that judgment, and can truly forgive, it will take you on a path of internal healing and change you at a very fundamental level.

A misconception on the concept of forgiveness is that forgiveness is not necessarily a pardon. You are not pardoning or compromising your morality. Forgiveness is also not for the benefit of the person or thing you are forgiving. The act of forgiveness is mainly for your own personal benefit, so you can move on with your life. The Course in Miracles is a lengthy course on training yourself to forgive at a deep and fundamental level, and forgiving even the things you wouldn't think of forgiving.

There are apparently a number of psychologists who have reviewed this, and say that exposing their clients to this philosophy has done far more than traditional counseling. They claim that there is a demonstrated experimental psychological benefit to forgiveness, which is why I say it is akin to a science.

The material on this does go further and suggest that there is more benefit to forgiveness than just a psychological effect, and that it translates into karma and other meta-physical effects which tends to benefit your life in general.

Another interesting tenet about A Course in Miracles is that the author was an old lady atheist who claims that Jesus Christ spoke to her and guided her to write it. It is essentially a sequel to the New Testament, written for a modern audience with the goal of helping us reach spiritual enlightenment. In The Disappearance of the Universe many surprising claims are made, such as that Jesus wasn't necessarily promoting forgiveness in the NT because he wanted you to be a moral goodie-two shoes, or that morality is even the key, but that forgiveness is really the secret to our internal and external struggles. Jesus reveals that the world's evils are by design (somehow by our own design, satan is our ego manifested as reality), and it is all a test for us to forgive it and ourselves.

In The Disappearance of the Universe book it is revealed that reincarnation exists (erased from the Bible by a Roman dictator), and that over the millennia we reincarnate thousands of times in different scenarios in near proximity to the spirits from our previous lives, gaining spiritual character-quality stats as you try to right the wrongs of your experiences in the next go around. In Disappearance it is suggested that once you learn to forgive, and are able to forgive it all, you have satisfied your own imposed victimhood requirements. There are no more wrongs to correct and you can finally stop reincarnating, to which you reach spiritual enlightenment and can ultimately leave this world.

While it is not necessary to believe any of the supernatural elements of this to derive benefit, and I'm not sure that I do and mainly find it interesting, have you ever even heard that there was a forgiveness book sequel to the New Testament which claims to be written by Jesus and which has gained a following? Of course not. You were not wanted to. This is all the more reason to look into the knowledge which you are being denied.

26
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 13, 2024, 04:54:39 PM »
Trump is not the first conservative to question the value of NATO. In fact, he mostly gets his opinions from pre-existing positions that have existed for at least a decade prior. Rush Limbaugh and others have echoed all of his general sentiments years ago.

At this point there are no deep cultural ties between America and most of the NATO countries, such as Estonia and many others. It is a service. If some people want to abuse the service by using military resources and not paying, then they are deserving of rejection and even animosity for wasting the resources that are necessary to protect others. Trump has touched on the animosity a bit, and I agree with him.

27
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes
« on: February 13, 2024, 03:05:18 AM »

28
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 13, 2024, 02:57:11 AM »
None of what Trump said is detestable.
Because of the word I bolded. You don't care what he said, he said it so it's OK.
If someone you don't like says something then it's "bad". Again, not because of what's said, because of who said it.
You're either programmed beyond hope or trolling. It doesn't really matter which, neither leads to productive debate.

You seem to believe that I secretly care deeply about NATO allies. I do not.

I don't care if Estonia gets invaded. Why should I?

29
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 12, 2024, 04:03:16 PM »
Trump is on the right track here.
lol. There’s a good cult member.
Trump loves people like you, you’re so easy to program. Literally doesn’t matter what he says.

Quote
You guys should pay the amount you agreed to for protection. America shouldn't protect dead beats.
Well, that seems fairly reasonable.
But encourage?
The mental backflips you do to justify anything your cult leader says or does are ridiculous. You’d come across as more credible if you were more honest. You don’t believe America should actively encourage nations to attack NATO nations just because they haven’t paid.

The NATO expectations are very reasonable. Each country is expected to contribute 2% of GDP. An alliance is a two way street. You can't just take. If you are not contributing then you are putting everyone else in danger by using the alliance's infrastructure and resources to cover you. How is NATO supposed to protect everyone if they have multiple military bases and high tech infrastructure that they are maintaining in your territory that you are not paying for?

Wolf packs are known to drive out or kill the sick or injured members in their packs, and arguably rightly so. It slows them down and invites predators. None of what Trump said is detestable.

30
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 12, 2024, 07:21:16 AM »
Quote
He recalled that the leader of a "big country" had presented a hypothetical situation in which he was not meeting his financial obligations within Nato and had come under attack from Moscow.

Mr Trump said the leader had asked if the US would come to his country's aid in that scenario, which prompted him to issue a rebuke.

"I said: 'You didn't pay? You're delinquent?'... 'No I would not protect you, in fact I would encourage them to do whatever they want. You gotta pay.'"

Trump is on the right track here. You guys should pay the amount you agreed to for protection. America shouldn't protect dead beats.

32
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 02, 2024, 10:26:55 PM »
Trump disagreed with his lawyers offering that. If you can't say that you would take the people prosecuting you out to lunch then this sounds like a rules for thee but not for me situation.

33
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: February 02, 2024, 06:36:41 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/01/politics/roberta-kaplan-donald-trump-deposition-maralago/index.html

This fucking child could actually be elected president again, I can't even

If someone comes to your house and wants to deposition you on a crime that you have allegedly committed, who should be taking who out to lunch, if anyone?

34
That's not the Zetetic method. Please read the material.

Also, those sinking ship observations have been studied and debunked - https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect

The effect is not consistent and and tends to change constantly. There are plenty of examples of this, some in the above link

Bobby Shafto, who came to our forum as a Round Earther (and presumably still is), was interested in this in apparent honesty (more than most people who have come here) and has looked at the material and concluded that the sinking ship effect is not consistently reproducible, and he has also concluded that the sinking doesn't even match the RE curvature.



Video description:

"These are stills from the last 23 panning videos captured by Pablosdog from UCSB Campus Point and sweeping across the panorama from Santa Barbara's Mesa Lane to Point Mugu. This is of oil rig Platform Henry at a distance of 16.88 miles in the foreground with the hills of Ventura County at 50-55 miles and the Santa Monica mountains at 70+ miles in the background.

Details:
Camera location: varies slightly. Within 50 ft north/south of 34°24'32"N 119°50'32"W
Camera height: approximately 45 ft with tripod.
Platform Henry: 34°19'59"N 119°33'42"W
Ventura County "ridge" in background aligned with Henry: 34°09'35"N 118°55'46"W
(see    / @pablosdog2808   for more information)

None of these depict the earth as one might expect if it is a globe with radius of 3959 miles without the optical effects of an atmosphere under varying conditions."

35
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 31, 2024, 08:00:14 PM »
The case honk lined to was a defamation case, just like the case in the screenshot was a defamation case. Trump also called Stormy names which 'defamed' her character. But alas, in the end it was Stormy who was told to pay Trump and not Trump who was told to pay Stormy.
So she has to pay him $300k, and he has to pay E. Jean Carroll $83 million.
I guess that pretty much evens out.

He doesn't have to pay anything until appeals are played out.

From honk's link:

"The jury awarded Carroll $65 million in punitive damages, $11 million for the damage to her reputation and another $7.3 million. Trump is almost certain to appeal the verdict."

36
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 31, 2024, 03:58:32 PM »
The case honk lined to was a defamation case, just like the case in the screenshot was a defamation case. Trump also called Stormy names which 'defamed' her character. But alas, in the end it was Stormy who was told to pay Trump and not Trump who was told to pay Stormy.

37
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 30, 2024, 08:17:56 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1226626397/trump-defamation-trial

Winning bigly.

Trump is actually winning 1 - 0 on these sex lawsuits after all appeals are concluded. As I recall you guys spent years gloating over this person.





38
If all of my examples give reasons to distrust, then does this mean that you distrust the flat earth community; this was on the examples list. I mean Bob Knodel of the flat earth community did say "well, we can't accept that" in regards to the 15 degree drift he observed from his own test. And, some of the test setups referenced in this Wiki are very inaccurate and faulty - for example the referenced YouTube video where the test setup uses a solid piece of magnifying glass to simulate earth's atmosphere. Should we conclude that the flat earth community should inherently be distrusted along with the claim that the earth is flat?       

You stated that I want to believe them (NASA?) in regards to space travel just because I love space.

I suppose that I am to infer that you don't want to believe them (NASA) in regards to space travel just because you hate space.

I've never spoken to Bob, and his theories or assumptions are not relevant to this website. One guy saying something somewhere is also not "the flat earth community", or even a representation of the FE community he was part of. The Wiki on this site is more representative to some kind of community consensus than the word of a single person. The information on the Wiki is collected from the TFES discussions, which at least generally involves more than one person. You will find that there is different information there on the operation of the Ring Laser Gyro than from what Bob thinks.

What you are referring about daylight pattern in the Wiki is accurate in the sense that the seasonal daylight patterns can be explained in that manner. There is a way to explain it in that particular model, and that is all it presents itself as in the Wiki - an explanation of what may be happening - "If the light is shining through imperfect affecting phenomena it may widen into a non-circular shape." It does not claim to take any further steps to prove that it is occurring in that way. Your demands on that next step is irrelevant to the statement that an explanation exists for those shapes.

Since you don't deny that your main foundation for defending NASA is based on your love of space, and want to divert the discussion to other topics now, I will assume that you concede on the conspiracy discussion. I therefore don't really see any point in continuing the discussion with you.

39
All of your examples give reason to distrust.

Ie. "In the early 1980's Milton Bradley released their Dark Tower Board game which a few years later went into litigation due to trade secret's being stolen from several independent game developers. Does this mean that board games are a hoax?"

This is not a reason to implicitly trust Milton Bradley on the IP rights for their games. This is a reason to distrust them. They stole that game, so why should we just assume that they are honest good working people and that all of their games are legitimate?

But this is essentially what you are asking us to do here, despite the government having essentially lied to us thoroughly and often about many of their "games".

You want to believe them in regards to space travel just because you love space, while you perform a 180 to distrust the government on a whole host of other topics which you aren't as passionate about.

40
The only reason most people are enamored with NASA is because of a childhood space fantasy.

I rarely see any defense of the US Government and others over lying to the people to get into wars, poisoning its people in illegal medical experiments (which they have admitted), or showing us phony inflation and unemployment numbers. Because your defense of NASA and Co. is mainly rooted in your fantasy, and it is otherwise generally conceded that the governments are prolific liars and sociopaths who have ulterior motives and countless secrets, is it a weak argument that government space agencies should be inherently trusted.

Based on all we know, government claims should be inherently distrusted.

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