Offline Gulliver

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Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« on: May 25, 2014, 12:18:30 AM »
FET relies on conspiracy theories to avoid the RET plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face evidence From denying true space travel (orbital or super-orbital) to explaining longer than FET-predicted travel times in the ND, FET can survive only with this poly.

The first important point: A conspiracy theory can be (and usually is) not falsifiable. See definition at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability .So if NASA is involved in the "Space Travel Conspiracy" and then North Korea manages an orbital flight then the conspiracy rather than treat NK's evidence as nullifying, simply claims NK is now involved, at some level, in the conspiracy. The "fiat" power of the not-formally-qualified conspiracy theory is that it grows to deflect any new result. As such any theory that relies on a conspiracy, is not a scientific theory, that is, that theory does not conform to the Scientific Method. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method .

So any postings above FEG are moot. The FEer can just wave his or her "magic" wand to explain the failing of FET and win the point. So, please, please, please, keep conspiracy theories in FEG. Thank you!

Second, FEers are confused about generalization and its incorrect use. A conspiracy theory start with the generalization. Everyone is fooled by the conspiracy theory, with of course the obvious exceptions of those perpetrating  the fraud. So if someone argues that flights which under FET's standard models should take less time than observed are always diverted "to fly around" undetected to arrive at a later, but RET predicted, time, then that's a generalization. The REer need only point to one counter-example, such as the use of FligthAware (See http://flightaware.com/ .) on one flight on one day, not show that all people tracked all flights for weeks and weeks without exception.

An interesting FEer spinning of a tall tale dates back to the early days of the old Forum. In order to explain earlier-than-FET-predicts arrivals within the SD, FEer made up the tale that in the SD there are convenient jet streams that travel in both directions placed and timed to support FET. The controller and pilots are in on the conspiracy so they ignore ground-speed RADAR and keep the secret.

So, I suggest that we just augment this thread and point FEers here every time one of them argues for a conspiracy theory as a solution to any debate point. There's no sense just repeating the same posts, is there?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
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Offline Gulliver

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The Death of a Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 03:45:07 AM »
How can a conspiracy theory ever die? It's not like an REer could nullify it, right? Well, one FET conspiracy theory seems to be dead, or at least dying.

For years, Tom Bishop concurred with Rowbotham that the South Pole, as a pole, does not exist. Rowbotham, applying Zetetic principles, determined beyond contradiction that the "SP" was circumferential. It's a circle of the circumference of the knowable Earth, not a point. Tom Bishop for years presented "evidence" of the SP conspiracy. He argued and argued that those in the know, including some in NASA, deliberately defrauded the rest of humanity for decades.

Now, however, Tom Bishop claims that the SP has indeed been discovered. Rowbotham, despite his unerring methodology, was wrong. Tom Bishop now believes the SP exists and acts as reported by NASA and others for decades.

The downside of this is simple: a new conspiracy theory is necessary to explain why no one ever reports reaching the edge of the Earth given the "bi-polar" model that Tom Bishop now advocates. One down. One up. <sigh>
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Thork

Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 12:51:23 PM »
Stop whining. This isn't your personal blog.

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Offline jroa

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 01:48:44 PM »
I am concidering moving this to angry ranting.  Gulliver, how is this not just you complaining about someone changing their theory: a long time ago, I might add? 

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 01:59:04 PM »
I am concidering moving this to angry ranting.  Gulliver, how is this not just you complaining about someone changing their theory: a long time ago, I might add?
We REers regularly argue that conspiracy theories are not falsifiable. This is not just about someone changing their theory. It's about dealing with CTs in general, dealing with FEers use of special pleading and the fiat of CTs that allows unfair revisions. Surely dealing with CTs in a consistent and deliberate manner and being able to reference a considered argument in FEG fosters better debate. While Tom Bishop's "morphing" solution is an example, it is good to know that some CTs die.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline jroa

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 10:17:24 PM »
Right.  Well, I will give you one more opportunity to explain why you are not just simply complaining about some trivial detail before I move this to AR.  Your last post really did not do your cause any good.  It actually made you sound more like you are Angrily Ranting. 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 10:40:46 PM »
The REer need only point to one counter-example, such as the use of FligthAware (See http://flightaware.com/ .) [...]
Why do you start new threads about things you've already been shown to be wrong about? I second jroa's proposal. Please explain the purpose of this thread, other than it being your personal blog.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 11:32:55 PM »
The REer need only point to one counter-example, such as the use of FligthAware (See http://flightaware.com/ .) [...]
Why do you start new threads about things you've already been shown to be wrong about? I second jroa's proposal. Please explain the purpose of this thread, other than it being your personal blog.
Would you kindly point me to where I've "already been shown to be wrong about" please? That would be a great place to join up.

I do appreciate the need to keep the forums organized. I honestly believe that taking the time to explain my concern about the nature of CTs, especially how they can't be debated (in the scientific sense) would help noobs from unfair bashing. I could always point noobs to an AR thread for the same effect, I guess. Thanks.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline pilot172

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2014, 11:42:57 AM »
so this means they cant keep saying none of the photos of the earth from outer space are real
1 in 10 suicides apparently could be stopped if someone smiled or made the person happy for a minute so its my goal in life to make as many people as happy as possible...also QUEENSLANDER!!!!

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 02:59:19 PM »
so this means they cant keep saying none of the photos of the earth from outer space are real
They can "say" anything, but, no, FEers cannot claim both that FE is a science and that a conspiracy hides and fakes evidence. Science uses the Scientific Method to eliminate confirmation bias. FEers allow conspiracy theories to confirm their beliefs.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 02:53:20 AM »
Except that we often provide evidence to back the allegations of fraud.

Ghost of V

Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2014, 04:12:50 AM »
I resent being told what to do, Gulliver. Your egotistical tirades are just offensive. Take it to your LJ.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2014, 04:59:33 PM »
I resent being told what to do, Gulliver. Your egotistical tirades are just offensive. Take it to your LJ.
And just where did I ever tell you what to do, especially in this thread?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2014, 05:01:23 PM »
Except that we often provide evidence to back the allegations of fraud.
Just as you did with the South Pole fraud that you now champion as wrong?

How is your record of providing innuendo even come close to evidence of any fraud?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 03:14:30 AM »
Except that we often provide evidence to back the allegations of fraud.
Just as you did with the South Pole fraud that you now champion as wrong?

How is your record of providing innuendo even come close to evidence of any fraud?

I don't know what you're talking about in regards to the South Pole.

There is plenty of evidence of fraud. Consider the missing Lunar Rover tracks, for instance.

The enlightened see it for what it is: evidence of a hoax. The brainwashed call it "the astronauts carried the Lunar Rover around with them on the moon rather than driving it".
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:16:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 04:20:05 AM »
Except that we often provide evidence to back the allegations of fraud.
Just as you did with the South Pole fraud that you now champion as wrong?

How is your record of providing innuendo even come close to evidence of any fraud?

I don't know what you're talking about in regards to the South Pole.

There is plenty of evidence of fraud. Consider the missing Lunar Rover tracks, for instance.

The enlightened see it for what it is: evidence of a hoax. The brainwashed call it "the astronauts carried the Lunar Rover around with them on the moon rather than driving it".
You now content that the South Pole has been discovered after years of claiming fraud covers up the circumferential nature of the SP. You presented evidence of that fraud.

You're also on record that the movie Apollo 18 was a documentary with its moonbuggy. Now you want to argue that the Lunar Landings are a hoax? Really?

Did you have some hope that you could provide definitive evidence of a conspiracy after Dr. Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy destroyed all previous attempts.

If so, document it, research whether Phil Plait or Myth Busters already busted it, and then submit it to both.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 09:12:32 AM »
There is plenty of evidence of fraud. Consider the missing Lunar Rover tracks, for instance.

That is not evidence.
You stated that images can't be presented as a proof in this forum.

Please, show only trustable evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 02:25:26 AM »
Except that we often provide evidence to back the allegations of fraud.
Just as you did with the South Pole fraud that you now champion as wrong?

How is your record of providing innuendo even come close to evidence of any fraud?

I don't know what you're talking about in regards to the South Pole.

There is plenty of evidence of fraud. Consider the missing Lunar Rover tracks, for instance.

The enlightened see it for what it is: evidence of a hoax. The brainwashed call it "the astronauts carried the Lunar Rover around with them on the moon rather than driving it".
You now content that the South Pole has been discovered after years of claiming fraud covers up the circumferential nature of the SP. You presented evidence of that fraud.

You're also on record that the movie Apollo 18 was a documentary with its moonbuggy. Now you want to argue that the Lunar Landings are a hoax? Really?

Did you have some hope that you could provide definitive evidence of a conspiracy after Dr. Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy destroyed all previous attempts.

If so, document it, research whether Phil Plait or Myth Busters already busted it, and then submit it to both.

I can't find where this subject has been busted by children's book author Phil Plait. Kindly find a source for your nonsense.

There is plenty of evidence of fraud. Consider the missing Lunar Rover tracks, for instance.

That is not evidence.
You stated that images can't be presented as a proof in this forum.

Please, show only trustable evidence.

When have I stated that?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 02:30:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2014, 02:35:46 AM »
I can't find where this subject has been busted by children's book author Phil Plait.
Perhaps it was above your reading level.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Dealing with Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2014, 03:30:57 AM »
I can't find where this subject has been busted by children's book author Phil Plait. Kindly find a source for your nonsense.
Your post contains so many egregious errors that I'll post my replies over some time.

Let's start with a challenge: Where did I say that this subject has been busted by children's book author Phil Plait?

If you'd just Google "Phil Plait Bad Astronomy" you would get About 121,000 results (0.54 seconds).

Dr. Plait has not authored any children books to the best of my knowledge, and such really isn't relevant anyway.

I think perhaps you were trying to assail Issac Asimov, one of the world's most prolific, and esteemed, science authors, regarding his definitive book here: http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/earthpix.pdf
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.