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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2018, 08:38:16 PM »
I cannot see your video, but I am rather confident that there is a difference between following East into space and following East along the surface of a globe.

Follow East in the below diagram:



Where does it take you?

Why should it matter what shape the earth is? The light is coming in from the east. Following the direction of east along the surface of the spherical earth, as the surface curves away, to a distant spot on that surface, is meaningless for the purpose of discussion.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 08:54:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2018, 09:29:02 PM »
It looks like there's folks out there that don't understand basic navigation on the globe.  Not only that, they don't understand that they don't understand. 

To put is simply.  If you stand and face the South Pole then your left side will face east.  Now if you turn 90 degrees to your left then you will be facing East.  You only continue in an Easterly direction by staying on the same latitude line you start on.  East on a globe is defined by staying on a constant distance line between the North Pole and the South Pole.  Its the same with going West.  That's how the latitude lines are defined.  When you stay on any given latitude line you will always stay a constant distance between the poles.  Now those distances won't be equal, except at the equator.  The nice globebusters video didn't follow basic navigational practices in their illustrations and would be lost at sea quickly if they actually practiced what they preached in the video.  The other thing that isn't understood is the fact that a globe involves 3 different axes.  There's the x, y and z axis.  Effectively if you go directly east and keep a constant distance between the North and South Poles you will travel along the x axis, but not change your y axis.  That's because the y axis is the one defining the distance between the North & South poles.  Since you aren't going off into space you are also traversing along the z axis as well.  In other words, you MUST think in 3 dimensions to fully understand the globe.  Failing to do that will always lead you to misunderstandings and badly misrepresenting how things actually work. 

I have the same questions as Bobby does above.  I've really struggled on my freshly made flat earth map to understand just how the sunrise at Ushuaia Argentina could possibly work as observed in real life.  There's been plenty of explanations provided on the globe earth model (incorrect or not) and that's here on the flat earth site.  It's really crazy to think about that.   Please, please  straighten out the whole controversy here and enlighten us all on just how the azimuths and times of the sunsets and sunrises actually work on the flat earth model.  I've come here to get expert help on this matter.   
You can lead flat earthers to the curve but you can't make them think!

Offline edby

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2018, 09:40:31 PM »
(1) Check on timeanddate to find which location the sun is at its zenith on 23 Sep 2018
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?day=23&month=9&year=2018&hour=6&min=12&sec=0&n=156&ntxt=Miami&earth=0
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On Sunday, 23 September 2018, 10:12:00 UTC the Sun is at its zenith at Latitude: 0° 08' South, Longitude: 25° 06' East
This is a fact, it doesn’t matter how derived. It can always be checked. Google Maps says the location is close to Kisangani in the Congo.

(2) Find the direction (i.e. azimuth) the sun will appear in Miami, using Stellarium. This says due East i.e. 90 degrees. It doesn’t matter how Stellarium derives this (perhaps by patterns) this is another fact which could easily be verified.

(3) Draw a line on Google maps from Miami to Kisangani. See the first picture below. This confirms that the azimuth is due East.

(4) Note also how the same line appears viewed from a different angle. See second picture below.






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Offline markjo

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2018, 10:13:07 PM »
Why should it matter what shape the earth is? The light is coming in from the east. Following the direction of east along the surface of the spherical earth, as the surface curves away, to a distant spot on that surface, is meaningless for the purpose of discussion.
Tom, if you're in Miami, Fl and look due east, will your line of sight follow a line of latitude or will it follow a great circle?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

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If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2018, 10:17:22 PM »
Why should it matter what shape the earth is? The light is coming in from the east. Following the direction of east along the surface of the spherical earth, as the surface curves away, to a distant spot on that surface, is meaningless for the purpose of discussion.
Tom, if you're in Miami, Fl and look due east, will your line of sight follow a line of latitude or will it follow a great circle?

Assuming a Round Earth, your line of sight will do neither. It will take you out into space. From a side view diagram that line would match up with the lines of latidude.

In edby's diagram above the line is laid out along the surface of the globe and, started on the initial bearing of East, wraps around the globe Southwards to the Equator. This is different than the line of East through space.

If one were to travel that path and follow the compass Eastwards, or travel on the line of latitude Eastwards, it wouldn't make that direction.

To the observer in Miami, when looking Eastwards at the rising sun, he is looking along that orange lines in those diagrams I had provided that were coming from the East, and which match up with the East-Wast lines of latitude.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:06:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2018, 10:22:25 PM »
It looks like there's folks out there that don't understand basic navigation on the globe.  Not only that, they don't understand that they don't understand. 

To put is simply.  If you stand and face the South Pole then your left side will face east.  Now if you turn 90 degrees to your left then you will be facing East.  You only continue in an Easterly direction by staying on the same latitude line you start on.  East on a globe is defined by staying on a constant distance line between the North Pole and the South Pole.  Its the same with going West.  That's how the latitude lines are defined.  When you stay on any given latitude line you will always stay a constant distance between the poles.  Now those distances won't be equal, except at the equator.  The nice globebusters video didn't follow basic navigational practices in their illustrations and would be lost at sea quickly if they actually practiced what they preached in the video.  The other thing that isn't understood is the fact that a globe involves 3 different axes.  There's the x, y and z axis.  Effectively if you go directly east and keep a constant distance between the North and South Poles you will travel along the x axis, but not change your y axis.  That's because the y axis is the one defining the distance between the North & South poles.  Since you aren't going off into space you are also traversing along the z axis as well.  In other words, you MUST think in 3 dimensions to fully understand the globe.  Failing to do that will always lead you to misunderstandings and badly misrepresenting how things actually work. 

I have the same questions as Bobby does above.  I've really struggled on my freshly made flat earth map to understand just how the sunrise at Ushuaia Argentina could possibly work as observed in real life.  There's been plenty of explanations provided on the globe earth model (incorrect or not) and that's here on the flat earth site.  It's really crazy to think about that.   Please, please  straighten out the whole controversy here and enlighten us all on just how the azimuths and times of the sunsets and sunrises actually work on the flat earth model.  I've come here to get expert help on this matter.   

You are absolutely right and I would perpetually get you lost at sea if charged with being the navigator. To your point, we've gone all around the ways a 3d globe fits with observations. The only real question is how the observations fit with a flat earth. For some reason RE wants to explore this yet FE does not.

Offline edby

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2018, 10:25:53 PM »
In edby's diagram above the line is laid out along the surface of the globe and, started on the initial bearing of East, wraps around the globe Southwards to the Equator. This is different than the line of East through space.
Then imagine you could travel very fast at 100 feet off the ground, and you follow the direction in which the sun appears, i.e. keep its azimuth constant relative to your own position. To be clear, you have a sundial on board your aircraft and you make absolutely sure the shadow remains in exactly the same place.

You will end up in that place in the Congo.

To the observer in Miami, when looking Eastwards at the rising sun, he is looking along that orange lines in those diagrams I had provided that coming from the East, and which match up with the East-Wast lines of latitude.
Yes he is, but only when in Miami. As I say, the rule is to take your sundial with the shadow pointing at 7 9 o'clock on the dial (or whatever) then keep travelling so as to keep the shadow in the same place.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:36:40 PM by edby »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2018, 10:32:23 PM »
Why should it matter what shape the earth is? The light is coming in from the east. Following the direction of east along the surface of the spherical earth, as the surface curves away, to a distant spot on that surface, is meaningless for the purpose of discussion.
Tom, if you're in Miami, Fl and look due east, will your line of sight follow a line of latitude or will it follow a great circle?

Assuming a Round Earth, your line of sight will do neither. It will take you out into space.
What if you assume a flat earth?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2018, 10:44:01 PM »
Then imagine you could travel very fast at 100 feet off the ground, and you follow the direction in which the sun appears, i.e. keep its azimuth constant relative to your own position. To be clear, you have a sundial on board your aircraft and you make absolutely sure the shadow remains in exactly the same place.

You will end up in that place in the Congo.

What makes you think that following the rays of the sun would take you to that location? The sun's rays are always coming in from the East along the lines of latitude (from a side view).

Now imagine that you are sitting in your house on the shoreline of Miami, looking at the rising Equinox sun.

Suddenly, the entire earth disappears and you are floating in space. Luckily, you have a space suit on and a rocket booster pack. You follow the sun with your rocket boosters. Where does it take you? Does it take you to a location where the Congo used to be?

The shape of the earth has nothing to do with the bearing of the sun. Those lines you had made that curve Southwards might meet at a point and tell you where the sun is at its maximum overhead zenith above the earth, for all of the earth, but this is a very different concept of following Eastern lines that depict the sun's bearing.

The actual sun is very far away in RET, and so its bearing is very distant and not directly connected to the point on the earth you are talking about. That is just the area where the sun is directly overhead for the globe shape.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:02:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2018, 10:53:49 PM »
The shape of the earth has nothing to do with the bearing of the sun, except that those lines with the initial you had made might meet at a point and tell you where the sun is at its maximum zenith above the earth, for all if the earth.

Correct, that's all that's being said.

Now, going back to Punta Arenas on the 12/26 sunrise, how does that observation work on a flat earth?

Offline edby

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2018, 10:57:46 PM »
Then imagine you could travel very fast at 100 feet off the ground, and you follow the direction in which the sun appears, i.e. keep its azimuth constant relative to your own position. To be clear, you have a sundial on board your aircraft and you make absolutely sure the shadow remains in exactly the same place.

You will end up in that place in the Congo.

What make you the no that following the rays of the sun would take you to that location? The sun's rays are always coming in from the East along the lines of latitude (from a side view).
The supposition about where I would end up is a consequence of RET. It is empirically testable.

Quote
The shape of the earth has nothing to do with the bearing of the sun, except that those Eastern lines might meet at a point and tell you where the sun is the most vertical above the earth.

Right, but then you have to explain how (during equinox) the sun maintains a constant azimuth as it rises. If I am at the equator when the sun rises, the shadow on the sundial will point 9 o'clock i.e. due West. As it continues to rise, the shadow will get shorter and shorter to a point, upon which it points due East. I don't see how FET could explain this observation. See my other thread.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:00:07 PM by edby »

Offline edby

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2018, 10:58:26 PM »
Now, going back to Punta Arenas on the 12/26 sunrise, how does that observation work on a flat earth?
That too.

But note on the Miami point, it is still true that the place in the Congo is the only place on earth where the sun is directly overhead as it is seen to rise in Miami. That is true whatever the shape of the earth, including if it is flat. But how is that possible if it is flat?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:05:23 PM by edby »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2018, 12:05:42 AM »
Bobby, we would first need to show that the premise of this argument is correct before we attempt to explain "how does this work in FET."
I don't understand this.

Does the rise due east on the Spring Equinox when viewed from Miami?

Where on the earth is the sun overhead the earth when that is happening?

Can you answer those two questions?

If so, then diagram for me how on a flat earth the sun at Miami rise is due east.

You presented that scenario. You don't see how it works on a globe? Fine. How does it work on a flat earth?

Even if you don't know where the sun is at Miami's equinox sunrise, just draw for me how due east from Miami goes. Does it go straight east from Miami, perpendicular to the longitude as the latitude bends away to the left and the sun is somewhere along that line? Or does it follow the line of latitude as it curves to the left and the sun is somewhere along that curve? Or something else I'm not thinking of?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2018, 12:29:52 AM »
Edby asked the same question in another thread. All of what we see of the celestial bodies are affected by perspective.  The perspective answer is here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11694.msg177692#msg177692
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 12:40:52 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2018, 12:45:48 AM »
Edby asked the same question in another thread. The perspective answer is here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11694.msg177692#msg177692
Yes. Now we're getting somewhere.

I'm having trouble digesting what P-Brane is saying, but I took a screencap:



This looks like a Mercator projection rather than the AE monopole model. Is that okay?

So that I don't screw it up because I don't understand, can you take that and adjust it to illustrate how the sunlight from the equator the time of a Miami equinox sunrise is reaching a viewer in Miami?  Rather than me botching up the attempt and waiting for you to tell me I'm wrong -- which I know I'll be because I don't even know where to start -- can you just show me how that applies to the scenario of a sunrise occuring due east when the sun is on the equator to the south for a flat earth?


Edit: Heck, I'll give it a shot. Something like this?

[image deleted]

Nope. After watching the full video, that was completely wrong. I don't know how to apply this to the topic. I await your answer.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 02:25:49 AM by Bobby Shafto »