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Messages - Voltare

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From the flat earth WIKI:  “The Conspiracy is the blanket term most commonly used by proponents of Zeteticism to refer to the active faking of space travel.”  Pete, it is a widely known fact that you are skeptical of this “conspiracy”.

I’m wondering, how do you reconcile that skepticism with your flat earth world view?  I’m mean, without the conspiracy as a foundation; doesn’t the flat earth hypothesis collapse?
  • If there is no space travel conspiracy, then there is no space travel cover-up, then there is no faking of space travel, then space travel is real, then humans have been to space and have seen the real shape of the earth.
  • If humans have seen the real shape of the earth as flat but continually report the shape of the earth is round, this could only mean that space agencies and space travelers must be lying.
  • If space agencies and space travelers are lying about the real shape of the earth, then the conspiracy is not about faking space travel, it instead becomes a conspiracy about faking space observations.
Either way, we still have a conspiracy, we still have a cover up.  Isn’t this conspiracy, this cover up, a foundational tenant of flat earth theory?  Please explain either way.

Perhaps you can help clarify your position on the matter by answering a few questions:
(I’m not trying to be facetious or start an argument, just honestly interested in your personal take on these subjects of which I’m not familiar on your stance).
1)   Do you believe rockets have ever been in to space?
2)   Do you believe humans have ever been in to space?
3)   Do you believe satellites orbit/circle the earth (flat or otherwise) from space?
4)   Do you believe any camera has ever captured the real shape of the earth?
5)   Do you believe humans have ever seen the real shape of the earth?
6)   Do you believe NASA fakes its photos of the round earth?
7)   Do you believe NASA is actively faking its space travel?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 09, 2019, 09:02:19 PM »
It is also unhelpful to shift the discussion to organizations, since it further dilutes the subject domain. You should be discussing individuals.
Why should I?  If only one individual in all of NASA is responsible for creating fake pictures of the round earth, the instant NASA publishes that picture, NASA as a whole can be implicated as a perpetrator of the hoax.  If NASA the organization didn't agree, they would not publish it or at the very least would retract it.

What I’m trying to do is put some meat on the bare bones of these specific Flat Earth Claims:

1.   “The Conspiracy is the blanket term most commonly used by proponents of Zeteticism to refer to the active faking of space travel.”
2.   “There is no Flat Earth Conspiracy.”
3.   “There is a Space Travel Conspiracy.”

So in light of these Flat Earth declarations, my claim is this:
A.   By definition of this conspiracy which is the “faking of space travel” we can conclude that anyone faking space travel is thereby a member of the conspiracy. 
B.   Since space travel is fake by definition of the conspiracy, anyone claiming space travel is faking it.
C.   Anyone claiming space travel is thereby a member of the conspiracy.
D.   14 Space agencies claim space travel, they are thereby members of the conspiracy.

You don’t agree?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 09, 2019, 02:07:53 PM »
I disagree that it's a given in the actual scenario we're discussing (and, as stated before, I'm not willing to engage in empty hypotheticals)
We're all just here trying to pursue the truth Pete.  I was just trying to establish a foundation of truth using boolean logic so at least we could find something we can all agree on and then use that to build more truth upon.  Since you won't even bring yourself to agree on the simplest base scenario, I'll bring it back to the actual scenario we are discussing.

Facts:
1) Flat Earther Claim:  There is a space travel conspiracy.  Humans have not been to space.   Space travel is being faked.  Space travel is false.
2) Space Agency Claim:  They have traveled in space.  Humans have been to space.  Space travel is real.
3) In order for the Flat Earther claim to be valid reality, we can establish that the Space Agency's knowledge about space travel is a given.  They know their organization has not traveled in space, since in reality it has not.  They know their agency has not put humans in space, since in reality they have not.  They know space travel is false and by virtue of this knowledge, they are forced to actively fake it to cover it up.  They are liars.  Their knowledge that space travel is false is precisely the foundation for the conspiracy.  No knowledge, nothing to cover up, no conspiracy.  Their knowledge is a given.

Which brings us back full circle to the logical imperative:
A) False is the opposite of True.
B) If space travel is False and if an organization knows it is False, yet claims it is True, that organization is a liar.
C) If 14 space agencies knowingly make False claims that space travel is True, all 14 organizations are liars.
You don't agree?

4
Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 09, 2019, 01:25:18 AM »
How do you establish someone else's knowledge of something?
I don't have to in this argument, it is a priori condition, a given.  I will rephrase to make it more obvious for you:

A) False is the opposite of True.
B) If something is False and if a person knows it is False, yet claims it is True, the person is a liar.
C) If # people knowingly make claim that this False something is True, all # people are liars.
You don't agree?

5
Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 08, 2019, 07:42:03 PM »
I don't see how I could agree. You provided me with no information that would confirm or deny your claim.
Boolean logic is all the information you need to confirm or deny my claim.  Certainly you subscribe to the reality of boolean logic.
A) False is the opposite of True.
B) If something is False, every person who knows it is False, yet claims it is True, is a liar.
C) If # people knowingly make claim that this False something is True, all # people are liars.
You don't agree?

I'm not very interested in empty hypotheticals.
It is the Flat Earther's very real claim that space travel is fake.
There are 14 very real space agencies that claim they conduct real space travel.
What part is hypothetical?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 08, 2019, 04:42:38 PM »
I already told you - nothing is safe to say about a group that can't be defined due to its very nature.

Seriously, you cannot even commit to one simple logical imperative:
A) If all space travel is fake, then every space agency claiming space travel is telling a lie and is part of the conspiracy.
B) If 14 space agencies claim space travel, then all 14 space agencies are telling a lie and are part of the conspiracy.

You don't agree?

7
Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 08, 2019, 04:06:12 PM »
Pete, I hope you realize that I’m just trying to help clarify matters for everyone’s benefit.  This will benefit round earthers because we will have a better understanding of what you believe.  This will benefit flat earthers because this knowledge could then be added to your FAQ and therefore prevent round earthers from asking repeated questions about it. 

Why would NASA be "the prime one"? You seem to know something, but you're reluctant to share it.
I’m just offering a suggestion based on quotes from your wiki.  “the active faking of space travel…
is most often associated with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)”

Given that most of them do not claim to perform the extraordinary feats you attribute to them, there's no need for them to be perpetrators of anything at all.
Now we are getting somewhere.  See, when you begin to apply some deductive reasoning to the matter, you certainly can begin to define the extents of the conspiracy.  It’s not impossible, no need to be a miracle-worker. 

So, now back to the top of the thread and the Wikipedia statistics.  “14 of those (space agencies) have launch capability. Six government space agencies … have full launch capabilities."   

Therefore Pete, is it safe to say that the 14 space agencies with launch capability (those who claim to perform the extraordinary feats that we attribute to them) are knowingly complicit members of the space travel conspiracy, yes or no?  Or do you want to be conservative, and knock it down to just the 6 with full launch capabilities (these include the ability to launch and recover multiple satellites, deploy cryogenic rocket engines and operate space probes)?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 08, 2019, 02:46:09 PM »
How exactly do you propose I'd do this?
You would know best.  Given that you seem to be certain of those groups which do not belong in the conspiracy, I figured by logical extension that you would most likely know who does rightly belong in it.

We should at least be able to lock down a few obvious players, right?  NASA being the prime one.  Would any other agencies of US government have to be involved? 

Probably not. I see no reason why they'd want to work together.
If all space travel is faked, wouldn't all 72 existing space agencies have to be knowingly complicit perpetrators in the hoax?  They wouldn't necessarily have to work together on the faking, they could just independently do their part.  If even one space agency wasn't faking it, then it would mean space travel is real, would it not?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 08, 2019, 01:44:31 PM »
The vast majority of the groups RE zealots try to force into the conspiracy have no business being part of it.
This is precisely my reason for starting this thread.  We have nothing to go on.  Instead of accusing RE zealots of trying to forcefully define the extents of the conspiracy, why not properly define the extents for us?  Come on Pete, this is your prime opportunity to bring focus and understanding to this topic so we aren’t left guessing.

In reality, any such conspiracy would necessarily be quite small. 
Being unknowingly complicit in someone's actions is not the same as being part of their group.
So in reality, who do you think makes up this quite small group of knowingly complicit actors?  Let’s start off with a simple bite sized question – Are all 72 existing space agencies knowingly complicit members of the space travel conspiracy, yes or no?

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Flat Earth Community / Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« on: May 07, 2019, 07:14:11 PM »
It has been my assumption about the “conspiracy” that it is this huge all-powerful foe which seeks to suppress flat earth reality and sustain round earth fiction.  I have come to understand from a previous thread that this couldn’t be farther from the truth.

From the Flat Earth Wiki, it states that “There is no Flat Earth Conspiracy” but “There is a Space Travel Conspiracy”.

This doesn’t provide a whole lot of information to go on, and as such I was wondering what flat earthers believe in more detail.  I’m curious as to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails, how deep, how wide.  I’m curious to know if you are skeptical of the conspiracy theory and why.

Just using Wikipedia as a reference, “As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies … have full launch capabilities."   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_space_agencies

Provided these stats are valid, do flat earthers consider all 72 space agencies in existence part of the conspiracy, is it just the 14 that have launch capability, or is it just the 6 who have full launch capabilities?  Would countries without space agencies be considered members in the conspiracy or not?  If not, why aren't these countries calling BS on the space fakers?

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The part where you say I "might" think something that I made abundantly clear I don't think, numerous times. HTTPS does not make traffic here "secure" in any meaningful sense. Your repeated attempts at forcing this are bad, and you should feel bad.

I do feel bad, there has been a miscommunication.  I’m seeking understanding of flat earth thinking and you seem to be the most vocal.  When I stated you might think you are secure…but you are not,  I meant you in the general sense, not you Pete Svarrior specifically.  People might think they are secure with HTTPS.  You have made it abundantly clear that you are not in the category of people who think that way.  I was just defending my understanding of HTTPS as you were accusing me with  "throwing buzzwords (and getting them completely wrong)",  not having “the faintest of clues”, and being “tech-illiterate”.

Oh, okay, so you've just decided what others believe. Again.
Quite the contrary.  Do you read anything that I write?
“I would love to know to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails.  I would also love to know what makes you skeptical of the conspiracy theory.” 
I quoted the wiki “there is a Space Travel Conspiracy” and asked questions for clarification implying I don’t have any idea what you (yourself and other Flat Earthers) believe exactly.

This is a waste of my time, I won't make this mistake again.
We can certainly call this thread closed if you like, I’m cool with that.  If you care to make one more response to salvage it in a meaningful and productive way that could be a benefit to all, please consider replying to this (and I promise no follow up reply) – I don’t know what you (Pete Svarrior) believe about the conspiracy, I don’t know what other flat earthers believe about the conspiracy.  I can only glean what is stated on the Wiki “there is a Space Travel Conspiracy” but that isn’t much to go on.  I’m inviting you and others to expound on what the conspiracy is, who is involved, and to what extent.  Thanks for your time.

[EDIT]On second thought, call this thread closed.  I'll ask the question in a new thread.[/EDIT]

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If *you* think HTTPS makes you secure, it's time to pick up a book.
Perhaps instead of being insulting and claiming intellectual superiority, you should do some reading yourself because it is evident you didn’t read my previous post:

My only point in bringing up HTTPS…goes to show how you might think you are secure…but you are not.
When I state you might think you are secure…but you are not, which part don’t you understand?  My posts, my URLs, my examples were all making the argument that HTTPS is NOT secure when there is a man in the middle.  If you have a problem with that argument, please do school me with your cybersecurity "expertise".


Why would I "give up" something that I'm widely known to be quite skeptical of?
Sorry, I freely admit that I have not read the Pete Svarrior Personal Beliefs FAQ yet.  Prior to originating this post it wasn’t widely known to me that you were skeptical of the conspiracy.  Also the post was directed at all flat earthers, not just you.


Or course, your assumptions about the conspiracy are ridiculous and designed to blow it out of proportion, and that is still worth challenging. Your entire and repeated point is that such a conspiracy would have to be huge and all-powerful. This couldn't be farther from the truth.
Now we are getting somewhere.  Yes spot on, my assumption about the conspiracy is that it was huge and global. By all means please do bring me closer to the truth.  I cannot read the Flat Earther’s mind and your FAQ certainly doesn’t detail the scope of the conspiracy.  I would love to know to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails.  I would also love to know what makes you skeptical of the conspiracy theory. 

From the Flat Earth Wiki there is a “Space Travel Conspiracy”.  Just using Wikipedia as a reference, “As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies … have full launch capabilities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_space_agencies

So are all 72 space agencies in existence part of the conspiracy, is it just the 14 that have launch capability, or is it just the 6 who have full launch capabilities?  Would countries without space agencies be in the conspiracy or not?  If not, why aren't these countries calling BS on the space fakers?

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I am eager for your reply to my last response Pete.  Every time you open your mouth on this subject, you assist in casting doubt on the presumption that a conspiracy even exists.

Governments are notoriously bad at Internet censorship, largely thanks to the design of the Internet. Even a China-style firewall is relatively easily bypassed for now. A DDoS attack would be especially ineffective, since most of our content is available from more than one source.
I see no reason to believe this, given the media's involvement in the cracking of every conspiracy that has been cracked to this day.
I will once again point you to the current track record of how ineffective Internet censorship is.

You argue for the inability and ineffectiveness of governments and their agencies to suppress a message, to censor speech, to silence the whistleblower.  You expound on the inherit design of the Internet to broadcast the message and liberate the truth.  You advocate for the media's resilience in exposing conspiracies.
 
And yet, not one person from inside the global conspiracy in all of history since the advent of the great lie has come forward.  No data leaks to the press, no pictures of the real flat earth, no mentions of the ice wall guardians.  No internal memos, no confidential documents, no conspiracy emails, no recorded phone calls, no undercover video, no original un-doctored photos or video.  Not one peep, not one leak, not one brave soul from within the inner circle has managed to utter one whisper to expose this mega deception, this colossal fiction!  Surely some poor serf inside the global cabal must be feeling the huge moral dilemma of having to constantly lie, endlessly doctor photos and continuously manipulate the truth.  And to what end?

The global conspiracy theory is the weakest argument flat earthers espouse.  It stretches the bounds of plausibility far beyond the break point.  You should give it up. 

14
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Understanding the Zetetic Method
« on: May 01, 2019, 05:33:26 PM »
I've changed your original statements to better fit a majority of the FE community (based on my personal experience)
  1) I cannot see the curvature of the earth. Therefore more research should be done on that matter. This particular observation could be interpreted as evidence that the earth might not be curved.
I like this one, thank you for the reply.

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Silenced? Last I checked, Snowden is pretty active and vocal, and Assange is receiving extensive media coverage, largely focusing on his supporters.
My only point by bringing up Snowden and Assange is that they are primary examples of where ONE government takes actions against the whistle blowers without fear of turning them into martyrs and they were forced to run.  Where would they run to if ALL governments were out to get them?

Nobody has any vested interest in "keeping the round Earth myth going".
Each SpaceX Falcon 9 launch costs an average of $57 million.  I would say that ANY company in the space industry has a substantial vested interest.

I will once again point you to the current track record of how ineffective Internet censorship is.
Also, it's a good thing network traffic can be routed in many ways.
One country alone might find it challenging to effectively censor Internet traffic.  But if ALL countries are in on the policing, this changes everything.  All network traffic, ALL routes would be passing through their policed routers.

HTTPS has absolutely nothing to do with this.
"the SSL handshaking" - lol.
My only point in bringing up HTTPS and SLL handshaking is that this just goes to show how you might think you are secure in your communications, but with a man-in-the-middle you are not; and you certainly are not when ALL countries are in on the policing and control ALL the middle ground.
https://www.ssl.com/article/ssl-tls-handshake-overview/
https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-the-nsa-and-your-boss-can-intercept-and-break-ssl/

Here is an example why this matters Pete.  So the next time you logon to this forum using HTTPS, a global conspirator watches you enter your unencrypted password.  Now he assumes your identity, logs onto this site, changes your password and takes over control of the boards.  Next he posts a retraction, "the earth is round".  He posts other lies and then uploads illegal materials that get you arrested.

The entire point of my post is this, if ALL countries are in on this elaborate hoax, they certainly COULD take measures to censor your message and certainly WOULD have the capabilities to be quite effective if they wanted to act together.  I think you are entirely naive about the level of power a global totalitarian regime could wield against you.


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Flat Earth Theory / Understanding the Zetetic Method
« on: April 26, 2019, 06:40:41 PM »
I want to make sure I'm understanding and characterizing Zetetic thinking and methodology correctly.
Are these statements accurate?
  1) I cannot see the curvature of the earth, therefore the earth is flat.
  2) I cannot see the end(s) of the flat earth, therefore the earth is infinite.

If these are true, would it also follow that these statements are accurate?
  3) I cannot see across the ocean, therefore the ocean is infinite.
  4) I cannot see electromagnetic radiation at a wavelength of 1 mm known as infrared, therefore it does not exist.
  5) I cannot hear a longitudinal wave vibrating the air at 25kHz, therefore it does not exist.
  6) I cannot see my own cells, my DNA, therefore they do not exist.
  7) I cannot see atoms, protons, electrons and quarks, therefore they do not exist.

These all empirical first person observations relying on my own senses to discern the true nature of the world around me from which I had derived the simplest most straight forward conclusions.  I did not speculate or imbue biases on what the answer might be, before first testing them out. 

Please Zetetic council members, help me out here.  Do my conclusions make sense in light of Zetetic methodology?  Please explain one way or the other.  Thank you.

17
The media like a martyr.

But the media surely is part of the machine that participates in the conspiracy.  Control the media, control the narrative, control the masses.  As for others that seek to expose the government's secrets, look to Snowden, look to Assange - exiled, chased, arrested, silenced.  This is just the reaction from one government, one country.  Now add all governments of all countries of the world.  Now add all private industries that have a huge monetary vested interest in keeping the round earth myth going.  These countries and governments and industries own the Internet backbone and administrate the DNS servers, they are the man in the middle.  Sure your website uses https, great its traffic is encrypted.  However if I own the routers in between, I can set up the SSL handshaking between both endpoints and see all the traffic in between (or modify or block the traffic).  It doesn't matter how many websites you put up, they own your data packets, they own your DNS records.  Of course the simpler method is to just attack the messenger and send a message to the followers.  Plant phony evidence, arrest and imprison, or get physical.

18
I have heard of many instances of persons subscribing to flat earth teachings being mocked, but I'm wondering from flat earthers if they have experienced persecution of an sort up to and including having your lives threatened in any way.  I would imagine exposing the greatest global conspiracy of all time would be extremely risky considering all the powerful nations and agencies at their command and the monies invested in keeping the round earth myth alive would cause conspirators to stop short of nothing to quash the flat earth truth. 

This web site must face an enormous onslaught of denial of service attacks from conspirators seeking to gag anyone denying the round earth narrative.  Tom Bishop and Pete Svarrior most certainly must be quite high up on many governmental hit lists.  Do you guys have body guards?  Does key flat earth leadership have to live off the grid, keep a low profile, hide out, avoid public appearances?

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