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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2016, 04:07:42 PM »
Oh, come off it! How small is the Planck distance? About 1.6 x 10-35 m or about 10-20 times the size of a proton - utterly miniscule compared to even the wavelength of green light (5.10 x 10-7 m)!

And you think that the directions of light might be quantised to an extent that might affect our observations.

Sure, plancks may be incredibly, incredibly dense. But have you ever heard of the inverse squared law?



Usually it deals with energy intensity, but we can also use it to see that the space to fill is increasing at an exponential rate away from the source.

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In any case, what is it to you? Your whole universe is a tiny hemisphere 40,000 km in diameter and (I guess) 20,000 km high, so why are you bothering to discuss long distances!

It's only tiny if we assume the theory of an universe with distances of thousands light years. Speaking from human experience, not "theory", anyone traveling 25,000 miles would say that is a very long distance indeed.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 04:55:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2016, 04:10:47 PM »
It is incredibly short sighted to simply assume what will happen at all scales. We must begin from experience. Experience will tell us the truth independent of any particular model or theory. And if you cannot find an experience of two parallel lines or objects receding into infinity and never touching, then I am afraid you are delusional.

It is also short-sighted to assume that your experience is enough to perceive what would happen on the Planck scale.  In fact, we can safely assert with no hope of counter-example, that you could not, without benefit of technological aid, perceive what is happening on that scale.

All this is somewhat moot anyway, since there is no one who would definitively say space is quantized.  This is why there is even a search for space-time foam.  As far as we can tell, energy and matter sometimes exhibit quantum properties, but space appears to be continuous.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2016, 04:54:14 PM »
It is also short-sighted to assume that your experience is enough to perceive what would happen on the Planck scale.  In fact, we can safely assert with no hope of counter-example, that you could not, without benefit of technological aid, perceive what is happening on that scale.

Zeno's Paradox experiments deal with how space and time work on the smallest scales.

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All this is somewhat moot anyway, since there is no one who would definitively say space is quantized.  This is why there is even a search for space-time foam.  As far as we can tell, energy and matter sometimes exhibit quantum properties, but space appears to be continuous.

It is my understanding that space and time does exhibit quantum properties, but it's easier to use continuous math for longer distances and bigger scales, so that is what is used.

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2016, 04:56:47 PM »
It is also short-sighted to assume that your experience is enough to perceive what would happen on the Planck scale.  In fact, we can safely assert with no hope of counter-example, that you could not, without benefit of technological aid, perceive what is happening on that scale.

Zeno's Paradox experiments deal with how space and time work on the smallest scales.

It is a thought experiment that may or may not have anything to do with the real world.  Also, isn't it incredibly dishonest to use a classical philosopher to show that classical philosophy does not apply to the real world?

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All this is somewhat moot anyway, since there is no one who would definitively say space is quantized.  This is why there is even a search for space-time foam.  As far as we can tell, energy and matter sometimes exhibit quantum properties, but space appears to be continuous.

It is my understanding that space and time does exhibit quantum properties, but it's easier to use continuous math for longer distances, and so that is what is used.

Nope, quantum space-time is just an idea with no empirical evidence.  People are trying to find a way to see if foamy space-time is true, but to no avail.  You understanding is incorrect.  Regardless, the wave-particle nature of the quantum world means that sometimes things appear quantum and sometimes they don't and this appears to be an actual property of matter-energy and not just an issue with uncertainty.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2016, 06:04:45 PM »
It is a thought experiment that may or may not have anything to do with the real world.  Also, isn't it incredibly dishonest to use a classical philosopher to show that classical philosophy does not apply to the real world?

It's more dishonest to use classic philosophy which was disproven by a classic philosopher of the same era.

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Nope, quantum space-time is just an idea with no empirical evidence.  People are trying to find a way to see if foamy space-time is true, but to no avail.  You understanding is incorrect.  Regardless, the wave-particle nature of the quantum world means that sometimes things appear quantum and sometimes they don't and this appears to be an actual property of matter-energy and not just an issue with uncertainty.

Wave-particle duality of particle physics has nothing to do with whether space is quantized or not, as both particles and waves are above the resolution of plank length.

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2016, 06:18:45 PM »
Regarding pi, 4 doesn't work.  Looking at the image of the square on the first page, the first change in the perimeter reduces the area by a significant amount.  It should be quite obvious why.

And you think that the directions of light might be quantised to an extent that might affect our observations.
In any case, what is it to you? Your whole universe is a tiny hemisphere 40,000 km in diameter and (I guess) 20,000 km high, so why are you bothering to discuss long distances!
This 'bendy perspective' would have to start working at about 3,000 miles (if the stars are a layer 3,000 miles high, give or take), as there would start being a measurable change their apparent spacing shortly after passing directly overhead.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 06:32:41 PM by model 29 »

Rama Set

Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2016, 06:56:48 PM »
Quote
It is a thought experiment that may or may not have anything to do with the real world.  Also, isn't it incredibly dishonest to use a classical philosopher to show that classical philosophy does not apply to the real world?

It's more dishonest to use classic philosophy which was disproven by a classic philosopher of the same era.

So you agree you are being dishonest then?

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Quote
Nope, quantum space-time is just an idea with no empirical evidence.  People are trying to find a way to see if foamy space-time is true, but to no avail.  You understanding is incorrect.  Regardless, the wave-particle nature of the quantum world means that sometimes things appear quantum and sometimes they don't and this appears to be an actual property of matter-energy and not just an issue with uncertainty.

Wave-particle duality of particle physics has nothing to do with whether space is quantized or not, as both particles and waves are above the resolution of plank length.

Which changes nothing about space-time not being quantized.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 06:58:29 PM by Rama Set »

Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2016, 07:04:17 PM »
News flash: Space-time doesn't exist. None of this wild abstract stuff that humans have pulled out of their ass to feel smarter than the Creator of the Universe is real.

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2016, 07:12:37 PM »
News flash: Space-time doesn't exist. None of this wild abstract stuff that humans have pulled out of their ass to feel smarter than the Creator of the Universe is real.

You don't think space or time exists?  Tell us more...  In another thread preferably.

Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2016, 08:05:26 PM »
News flash: Space-time doesn't exist. None of this wild abstract stuff that humans have pulled out of their ass to feel smarter than the Creator of the Universe is real.

You don't think space or time exists?  Tell us more...  In another thread preferably.

It seems perfectly fair to discuss in this thread, considering very little of this conversation has to do with Polaris.

I believe time is an abstract concept used to keep track of our existence, nothing more. Space, in regards to 3D plane based XYZ coordinates obviously exist, and the various ways to display and chart points in space do have uses, but the higher levels of mathematics have little to no practical use, or relation to reality.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2016, 01:19:37 AM »
Usually it deals with energy intensity, but we can also use it to see that the space to fill is increasing at an exponential rate away from the source.
Of course I am very familiar with the inverse square law!
And no, the area to fill is increasing at a square rate and the volume to fill is increasing at a cube rate.
Neither of those comes to anything like an exponential rate.
x2 or x3 don't increase at anything like the rate of 2x when x gets large.
And I fail to see where quantising can come into anything on this scale.

Yes, I suppose if you choose to disbelieve that anything can be outside you little world 25,000 miles is a huge distance.
Mind you the distance to the moon was measured long before Rowbotham (or NASA) came along and then measured by radar in the 1940's and again by laser in the late 1960's and 1970's.
Guess what, the measurements all agree to within the accuracies expected in each case. Even Hipparchus in the 2nd century BC used parallax to estimate the distance at about 400,000 km, about 7% away from the current figures.

So unless you can come up with something that slows radio waves and light down by a factor of 100 or so,
I'll stick to things being a bit bigger than you tiny universe!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2016, 03:16:29 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
Yes, I suppose if you choose to disbelieve that anything can be outside you little world 25,000 miles is a huge distance.

Mind you the distance to the moon was measured long before Rowbotham (or NASA) came along and then measured by radar in the 1940's and again by laser in the late 1960's and 1970's.
Guess what, the measurements all agree to within the accuracies expected in each case. Even Hipparchus in the 2nd century BC used parallax to estimate the distance at about 400,000 km, about 7% away from the current figures.

Hippachus assumed the earth was round in his calculations.

http://www.michaelbeeson.com/interests/GreatMoments/Hipparchus.pdf

« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 04:26:48 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2016, 06:36:13 PM »
Hippachus assumed the earth was round in his calculations.

Yes, he did.  Interesting thing about those eclipse observations though: even on a flat earth the only way for the moon to completely obscure the sun's disc as viewed from Syene while obscuring only 80% of the sun's disc as viewed from Alexandria is if the moon is closer to the earth than the sun.  This is what enables the viewer in Alexandria to see around the edge of the moon.  And since we know the moon only just barely obscures the sun, it follows that if it is closer than the sun it must also be smaller than the sun. This contradicts your Wiki, someone should redo the math there.

Just in case somebody wants to dispute the observations of the ancients (and I have to be fair, we have no way of knowing how rigorous or accurate those observations were) we have an opportunity coming up in 18 months to do some real-world observation of our own.  On August 21, 2017 we have a total eclipse predicted for the United States.  I imagine that many of the board participant live in the US, and we could pool resource and conduct simultaneous observations at various locations.  The projected ground track of the eclipse could not be more ideal for this kind of experiment.

http://www.eclipsewise.com/solar/SEprime/2001-2100/SE2017Aug21Tprime.html
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2016, 10:08:53 PM »
And since we know the moon only just barely obscures the sun, it follows that if it is closer than the sun it must also be smaller than the sun. This contradicts your Wiki, someone should redo the math there.

What does the Wiki say about how high and large the moon is?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2016, 12:03:10 AM »
And since we know the moon only just barely obscures the sun, it follows that if it is closer than the sun it must also be smaller than the sun. This contradicts your Wiki, someone should redo the math there.

What does the Wiki say about how high and large the moon is?
i am sure I can answer that!
Quote from: the Wiki, Moon
The moon is a rotating sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.
Quote from: the Wiki, The Phases of the Moon
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.
The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.
When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.
When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.
When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.
Mind you if you look at the geometry it does strike me as being a bit weird, but then from my distorted perspective light travels in straight lines! Silly me!
Also "a shadow from the sun" sounds a bit strange - a shadow from a light source?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2016, 12:12:56 AM »
And since we know the moon only just barely obscures the sun, it follows that if it is closer than the sun it must also be smaller than the sun. This contradicts your Wiki, someone should redo the math there.

What does the Wiki say about how high and large the moon is?
i am sure I can answer that!
Quote from: the Wiki, Moon
The moon is a rotating sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

I see the word approximately in there.

Quote
Quote from: the Wiki, The Phases of the Moon
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.
The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.
When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.
When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.
When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.
Mind you if you look at the geometry it does strike me as being a bit weird, but then from my distorted perspective light travels in straight lines! Silly me!
Also "a shadow from the sun" sounds a bit strange - a shadow from a light source?

What sounds strange about that? The sun doesn't make shadows?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2016, 03:12:37 AM »
Also "a shadow from the sun" sounds a bit strange - a shadow from a light source?
What sounds strange about that? The sun doesn't make shadows?
The sun only makes shadows because an object in interposed between the sun and the shadowed object (here the moon).
What third object is casting a shadow on the moon to cause the phases?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2016, 04:03:23 AM »
Also "a shadow from the sun" sounds a bit strange - a shadow from a light source?
What sounds strange about that? The sun doesn't make shadows?
The sun only makes shadows because an object in interposed between the sun and the shadowed object (here the moon).
What third object is casting a shadow on the moon to cause the phases?

Quote from: Wiki
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #98 on: February 24, 2016, 05:14:32 AM »
Tom, it doesn't help for you to merely quote the Wiki when the question being asked is " What does this line from the wiki mean?"  Especially if the line you quote was actually already quoted by the other guy, which means he saw it already and it didn't help the first time he read it.  It probably won't help the second time either, especially removed from the surrounding context. 

So I will tell you what I nderstand Rabinoz's question to be.  Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I apologize, but I would like an answer myself, so nothing lost.  Here it is: How can a shadow illuminate anything?  That's not what shadows do, illuminate.  They block illumination.

Here's the line again, with my emphasis addd to bring attention to the part we're asking about: "When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time."  Clearly states that a shadow is illuminating the moon, we/I just wonder what that means.  I think it might just be a typo, but I would lke to know for sure.
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #99 on: February 24, 2016, 12:18:21 PM »
Tom, it doesn't help for you to merely quote the Wiki when the question being asked is " What does this line from the wiki mean?"  Especially if the line you quote was actually already quoted by the other guy, which means he saw it already and it didn't help the first time he read it.  It probably won't help the second time either, especially removed from the surrounding context. 

So I will tell you what I nderstand Rabinoz's question to be.  Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I apologize, but I would like an answer myself, so nothing lost.  Here it is: How can a shadow illuminate anything?  That's not what shadows do, illuminate.  They block illumination.

Here's the line again, with my emphasis addd to bring attention to the part we're asking about: "When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time."  Clearly states that a shadow is illuminating the moon, we/I just wonder what that means.  I think it might just be a typo, but I would lke to know for sure.
Don't worry about Tom, he never actually answers a question, his replies are just intended to obfuscate!
(Gee, wonder where I dredged up a word like that from.)
You should have seen his answers when I showed that if the earth was flat, then π = 2, he almost had me believing it was 4!
Then that the circumference of a 10 cm disk was 2.5x10+33 Planck lengths!

You'll get used to it eventually, but don't ever expect any useful information