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Offline AATW

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The Flat Earth Sun
« on: January 07, 2018, 06:27:47 PM »
I hope this is the right place for this. I've looked through the Wiki about the sun in the FE model. I have the following questions.


What is the empirical evidence for the sun's size (32 miles in diameter) and height (3000 miles above the plane of the earth)? I see a page in the Wiki reinterpreting the data from Eratosthenes' stick experiment, there is a link on that page to an article from Millersville University which  does the maths of that reinterpretation but that article concludes:

Quote
as we move from Florida to Pennsylvania, our distance from the sun increases by about 30%. As a consequence the apparent size of the sun should decrease by 30%. We see no noticeable change in the apparent size of the sun as we make the trip. We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work

If the sun really is only 3,000 miles above the earth then it should be fairly easy to prove that by measuring the angle of the sun at cities a couple of hundred miles apart and triangulating. The Wiki page actually notes this is a way to determine the distance to the sun. Has this been done? Can the evidence be provided if so?

What in the FE model powers the sun and keeps it shining? And if it is circling above the flat earth then what keeps it in the sky? Why doesn't it fall on us?

I see that seasons are explained by the circular motion changing so it is a tighter circle in summer and bigger circle in winter. What causes the sun to move between these orbits and what makes it speed up in winter and slow down in summer as it would have to as the circumference of the circle changes, otherwise the day / night cycle would change length

If the sun is a sphere then what causes the spotlight effect? The Wiki compares it to a lighthouse but in a lighthouse the light is focused by lenses. What focuses the light in the flat earth model and stops it shining over the whole earth?

It is stated that sunrise and sunset are an effect of perspective. How does that explain the effect of clouds lit from below as in this photo?



Perspective cannot explain that. For a shadow to be cast upwards the light source has to be PHYSICALLY below the object. I have provide some proof of that in this thread
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6875.160

Perspective also cannot make a distant object slowly sink below the horizon on a flat plane. I believe the claim in ENaG is that perspective only makes it appear as though an object is sunken into the horizon and magnification can make the object reappear but you can zoom into a sunset and still see the sun slowly sink below the horizon. If the sun is 3000 miles above the earth then that wouldn't happen. Maybe a scale model could be built and photos taken from the appropriate perspective to explain how this would work?

Thanks in advance.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

JohnAdams1145

Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 07:30:48 AM »
Optics proves a tricky thing for FE theorists because it's so easy to just claim "distortion" or "perspective" or "fisheye lens" and dismiss the whole argument without budging from it. They'll claim that the atmosphere refracts the light upward not unlike how a mirage works. Of course, this is a load of garbage because mirages form under special conditions, none of which are present enough to cause the shadow effect.

There's a far easier debunk of the whole damn idea that the Sun is 32 miles in radius (if you're talking about diameter, it obviously gets worse). Doing a basic thermal energy calculation, one finds that the Sun at 32 miles in radius would run out of energy to give out in a cosmic heartbeat. The average kinetic energy of the gas particles in the Sun is capped by the highest temperature - 15 million K. This gives a value of about 3 x 10^-16 J per particle. Now one will quickly find that if gravity doesn't exist, how will the Sun hold itself together? Oh right, one of Tom Bishop's magical (and much weaker) "gravitation" forces. I'll be far more lenient and just assume that it holds itself together. We find that the proposed Sun has a volume of 5.58708453 × 10^14 liters. Now assuming that the proposed Sun has a density of 10 g / cm^3 (to give FE its best shot, we'll let the proposed Sun be denser than iron, although it can't reach this density). We find, then, that the proposed Sun has a mass of 5.58708453 × 10^15 kilograms. This yields 3.364621 × 10^42 hydrogen atoms floating about. So the proposed Sun has at most 1.0093863 x 10^27 J of thermal energy. Unfortunately, according to the Stefan-Boltzmann Law (where we assume that the surface temperature of the proposed Sun is 5000 K), this Sun has to radiate about 1.18 x 10^18 W of power. This means that the proposed Sun would only last at most 1 billion seconds, which a massive... 31 years. Your Sun would be dead in 31 years if it didn't have some way of replenishing its energy. This obviously contradicts the evidence that people have been alive for much longer than that and have seen the Sun (even if you don't buy the Earth is 4 billion years old).

Now that that long and arduous calculation is over, let's talk about what it means. FE theorists now have three choices:
Choice 1: Nuclear fusion powers the Sun so the calculation above is invalid. (This is true, and I'll address this below.)
Choice 2: Stefan-Boltzmann is bullshit (no it isn't, test it), your math is wrong (how?), or I don't understand it (well, I'll explain it to you, but that doesn't make this invalid), or some unquantified variant of "distortion"
Choice 3: Some other magical form of dark energy / quantum woo that I really don't even understand <insert Casimir> / relativity / wormholes / chemical reaction makes the energy inside the Sun. Remember Tom in the Occam's Razor thread, saying how FE theory was simpler than RE theory (hint: with all of the patches, it isn't! Of course if you don't understand basic physics and math and are inclined to believe conspiracies...)? So let me get this straight. You've already invented 3 forces (UA, gravitation #1, gravitation #2) to justify what can obviously be seen as an inability to comprehend scale; spheres locally look flat. You've already proposed physically impossible stuff, like things orbiting in circles above a disk (do you even understand how orbits work?). You've given a map whose distances do not line up with real world travel (direct flights from Sydney to Johannesburg). You've even asserted that the measured distances between cities are inaccurate! And now you're going to make up a new way of generating energy out of seemingly nothing?
Choice 4: Write it in. It probably rejects a ton of tested science.

So the only reasonable choice is #1 (or maybe I made a mistake, but 31 years is pretty hard to get to 4 billion years just by correcting mistakes). But this doesn't work. Nuclear fusion cannot occur with a star that is only 32 miles wide; it would have to be about twice the size of Jupiter to have a chance. The pressures and resulting temperatures just wouldn't be enough.  We have tested and verified that the conditions for nuclear fusion are as high as we believe they are. These are the fundamental principles behind thermonuclear weapons, and also behind much of the fusion research (and hobbyism) today. People have built homemade nuclear fusion machines. These have demonstrated that nuclear fusion requires high temperatures. As I've said a thousand times before, if the pressure of the "gravitation" (and Tom Bishop implies this is far weaker than normal gravity) of the proposed Sun were enough to initiate thermonuclear fusion, I could build weapons of mass destruction in my backyard with some high explosive and tap water. Sorry, FE theorists, but asserting the Sun is 32 miles in radius is living in fantasy-land.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:34:00 AM by JohnAdams1145 »

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 09:25:30 AM »
Yes. That's why I asked what powers the sun in the flat earth model. It's too small for it to be fusion, so what is it?
Not surprised that there have been no flat earth responses, at some level I think they know that their model doesn't work but they never quite admit it.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

JohnAdams1145

Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 03:56:46 PM »
I should also note that parallax measurements (essentially taking a bunch of angular measurements) was the principal way that the distance of 93 million miles was determined. Of course, FE people just deny those experiments.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 04:57:33 PM »
As I mentioned on another thread, the motion of the sun in the sky is much simpler than the moon (moves between the Tropic of Capricorn and Cancer every 28 days) and the stars of the zodiac (moves between these tropics daily).  The stars and moon are speeding up and slowing down in a much more elaborate fashion than the sun.  As noted, a geocentric round earth is a lot easier to explain when looking at the sky than a flat earth requiring all the motions of the planets, stars, sun and moon to fly around the sky and disappear for 12 hours every day and reappear for 12 hours.  How to explain the 24 hours of day light during the southern hemisphere summer?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 07:42:36 PM »
I hope this is the right place for this. I've looked through the Wiki about the sun in the FE model. I have the following questions.


What is the empirical evidence for the sun's size (32 miles in diameter) and height (3000 miles above the plane of the earth)? I see a page in the Wiki reinterpreting the data from Eratosthenes' stick experiment, there is a link on that page to an article from Millersville University which  does the maths of that reinterpretation but that article concludes:

Quote
as we move from Florida to Pennsylvania, our distance from the sun increases by about 30%. As a consequence the apparent size of the sun should decrease by 30%. We see no noticeable change in the apparent size of the sun as we make the trip. We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work

On this point the author apparently did not read Earth Not a Globe which explains why this occurs. We have a writeup in our Wiki: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 07:58:45 PM »
On this point the author apparently did not read Earth Not a Globe which explains why this occurs. We have a writeup in our Wiki: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
And, as usual, ENaG is wrong about this. Actually the sun (and moon) don't get any bigger or smaller as they set. It is merely an optical illusion.
Couple of sources:

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Sun-appear-bigger-during-sunrise-and-sunset-than-at-noon
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/52-our-solar-system/the-sun/observing-the-sun/190-why-does-the-sun-appear-larger-on-the-horizon-than-overhead-intermediate

And, as I said, there are other ways of verifying the distance of the sun by taking observations from a few points and triangulating. Has this been done?
Looking forward to a reply to the rest of my questions.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:01:11 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 08:18:41 PM »
Since the sun is hard to look at, the moon is a much better thing to view throughout the night.  Same size all the time.  It would be difficult to get the magnification of air (if a thing actually existed) to exactly match the size change of the moon as it gets closer and farther as it circles a flat earth.  Also more difficult for it to look to be the same size for people in the Arctic and southern Chile regardless of how much air it is being looked through.  And since the moon is closer to the earth than the sun, the change should be even more pronounced so that this magical air magnification has to also work to keep objects different distances from the earth appear the same size and for it to not work on airplanes (airplanes on the horizon look very small compared to when they are overhead). And mountains look smaller when you see them on the horizon compared to when you travel a few hundred miles to get close to them.  So as the moon and the sun travel around the earth, following paths between the two tropics, the air has to magnify them accordingly to keep them appearing to be constant sized to everyone everywhere. 
People who drive at night do not head into the ditch when they see a car on the horizon thinking it is just as big as a car a few feet in front of them!  It looks small and far away.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 09:17:41 PM »
On this point the author apparently did not read Earth Not a Globe which explains why this occurs. We have a writeup in our Wiki: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
And, as usual, ENaG is wrong about this. Actually the sun (and moon) don't get any bigger or smaller as they set. It is merely an optical illusion.
Couple of sources:

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Sun-appear-bigger-during-sunrise-and-sunset-than-at-noon
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/52-our-solar-system/the-sun/observing-the-sun/190-why-does-the-sun-appear-larger-on-the-horizon-than-overhead-intermediate

And, as I said, there are other ways of verifying the distance of the sun by taking observations from a few points and triangulating. Has this been done?
Looking forward to a reply to the rest of my questions.

The sun maintains its size through the day according to the description in our Wiki. The shrinking due to perspective is countered by the enlarging upon the atmoplane, causing its size to be consistent.

The Wiki isn't saying that the sun enlarges to be any bigger than it normally is.

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 09:28:32 PM »
The sun maintains its size through the day according to the description in our Wiki. The shrinking due to perspective is countered by the enlarging upon the atmoplane, causing its size to be consistent.
I see. Implausible, but possible I suppose.
Atmoplane made me laugh. As a plane is 2D may I suggest "atmodome"?
Lots of questions in my original post still not answered, I look forward to the answers.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 10:23:23 PM »
I have to disagree about the size of the sun. Chapter X of the 2015 edition of ENaG I referenced in other threads is clearly titled "Cause of Sun Appearing Larger When Rising and Setting Than at Noonday."  So not only is it farther away, it supposedly appears larger.  But as noted in this thread we all seem to agree that it appears to be the same size all the time.  As noted in another thread, I have driven over 1700 miles in my car south of Montreal and came nowhere near Concepcion, Paraguay.  So at noon, if the sun is 3000 miles directly above Concepcion on December 21 and Concepcion is 6000 miles from Montreal, the sun should be 6700 miles away from Montreal.  On June 21, it is directly overhead Key West, which is that 1700 miles south of Montreal (but only 1200 as the crow flies).  So the sun is now only 3200 miles away at noon in Montreal.  The sun should look over 4 times bigger, and these are both at noon, not when the sun is near the horizon.  Rowbothams chapter title does not agree with what we see and if what we see is the result of great magnifying abilities of air that do not exist anywhere else that we can see.  I have been to Key West and Montreal and the sun looked the same size at noon and during sunrise and sunset at both places.  It would be so much easier to just say that the sun is so far away, that is why it always looks like it is the same size and air does not have magical magnifying and shrinking powers.

JohnAdams1145

Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 10:27:02 PM »
And, of course, Tom has tried to muddy the waters by invoking "perspective" without quantifying it...

Nobody should read Earth is Not a Globe by Rowbotham because the guy is a crank who doesn't understand basic physics/geometry. He literally said that a spherical Earth was impossible because rivers can go thousands of miles without falling so much. His theories clearly don't have backing from basic principles.

And, of course, Tom hasn't addressed the energy aspect of the hypothetical 32 mile wide Sun.

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 10:35:15 PM »
I have no idea why Rowbotham is held in such esteem by some on here. His writings are literally treated like they are infallible. These quotes from the Wikipedia entry about him amused me, reminds me of some people on here:

Quote
"He took a little time to learn his trade, running away from a lecture in Blackburn when he couldn't explain why the hulls of ships disappeared before their masts when sailing out to sea."

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"When finally pinned down to a challenge in Plymouth in 1864 by allegations that he wouldn't agree to a test, Parallax appeared on Plymouth Hoe at the appointed time, witnessed by Richard A. Proctor, a writer on astronomy, and proceeded to the beach where a telescope had been set up. His opponents had claimed that only the lantern of the Eddystone Lighthouse, some 14 miles out to sea, would be visible. In fact, only half the lantern was visible, yet Rowbotham claimed his opponents were wrong and that it proved the Earth was indeed flat

He was just some bloke who has some theories, pretty much all of which are clearly wrong. It took me 5 minutes to prove him wrong on perspective in another thread, I even provided photographic proof. I wonder why some cling to his every last word so tightly.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 12:25:14 AM »
I have no idea why Rowbotham is held in such esteem by some on here. His writings are literally treated like they are infallible. These quotes from the Wikipedia entry about him amused me, reminds me of some people on here:

Quote
"He took a little time to learn his trade, running away from a lecture in Blackburn when he couldn't explain why the hulls of ships disappeared before their masts when sailing out to sea."

Quote
"When finally pinned down to a challenge in Plymouth in 1864 by allegations that he wouldn't agree to a test, Parallax appeared on Plymouth Hoe at the appointed time, witnessed by Richard A. Proctor, a writer on astronomy, and proceeded to the beach where a telescope had been set up. His opponents had claimed that only the lantern of the Eddystone Lighthouse, some 14 miles out to sea, would be visible. In fact, only half the lantern was visible, yet Rowbotham claimed his opponents were wrong and that it proved the Earth was indeed flat

He was just some bloke who has some theories, pretty much all of which are clearly wrong. It took me 5 minutes to prove him wrong on perspective in another thread, I even provided photographic proof. I wonder why some cling to his every last word so tightly.

That seems hard to believe when he has two chapters in Earth Not a Globe dedicated to that subject, is literally Aristotile's first proof that the earth is a globe and the first thing one would be asked about.

I am accused of "running away" all the time, but the conversation between  RE'ers and FE'ers is 100 to 1. I can't debate with everyone.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:26:25 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Kismet

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 12:45:26 AM »
Fortunately, Wikipedia provides sources. In this case: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26408/26408-h/26408-h.htm

Quote
This broadsheet is printed at Aylesbury in 1857, and the lecturer calls himself Parallax: but at Trowbridge, in 1849, he was S. Goulden.[183] In this last advertisement is the following announcement: "A paper on the above subjects was read before the Council and Members of the Royal Astronomical Society, Somerset House, Strand, London (Sir John F. W. Herschel,[184] President), Friday, Dec. 8, 1848." No account of such a paper appears in the Notice for that month: I suspect that the above is Mr. S. Goulden's way of representing the following occurrence: Dec. 8, 1848, the Secretary of the Astronomical Society (De Morgan by name) said, at the close of the proceedings,—"Now, gentlemen, if you will promise not to tell the Council, I will read something for your amusement": and he then read a few of the arguments which had been transmitted by the lecturer. The fact is worth noting that from 1849 to 1857, arguments on the roundness or flatness of the earth did itinerate. I have [89]no doubt they did much good: for very few persons have any distinct idea of the evidence for the rotundity of the earth. The Blackburn Standard and Preston Guardian (Dec. 12 and 16, 1849) unite in stating that the lecturer ran away from his second lecture at Burnley, having been rather too hard pressed at the end of his first lecture to explain why the large hull of a ship disappeared before the sails. The persons present and waiting for the second lecture assuaged their disappointment by concluding that the lecturer had slipped off the icy edge of his flat disk, and that he would not be seen again till he peeped up on the opposite side.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 12:57:00 AM »
"Tom Bishop ran away and didn't answer my question I posted that was easily researchable on my part."

Wah wah wah.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:42:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 01:59:38 AM »
Carl Sagan was highly critical of Aristotle for not being a scientist.  That is Aristotle sat around and thought about stuff instead of actually looking and experimenting.  I have a hard time reading all the stuff Rowbotham thinks about and how it proves a flat earth in the first chapter. That said, I can think of one flaw in Rowbotham's thinking.  If you are in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, Rowbotham claims that when you look at the horizon it is horizontal (hence the name 'horizon' and 'horizontal') and you do not see it curve down like it should if the earth was a globe.  Think about this one for a minute.  If you looked straight north and the earth was a globe, Rowbotham claims the left side of your field of vision should see the earth curve down.  Let us say it did and was down 10 feet at the position NW.  Then turn to look northwest.  The earth curves down another 10 feet at the position W.  Then turn and look west.  SW would be down 30 feet total.  S would be 40 feet.  SE 50 feet.  E 60 feet. NE 70 feet and finally straight north would be down 10 feet from looking NE or 80 feet from North.  (North would be 80 feet lower than North!) Which is absurd.  That is why the horizon is flat on either a flat or round earth but would be more apt to be flat on a round earth since the far away land would drop off out of view.  You would not see Mt Everest in the East on a round earth and you do not.  The horizon is nice and flat as it should be on a Round Earth, the same in all directions.  No giant ice wall in the distance.

Anyway, if Rowbotham sat around and wrote a bunch of stuff and then had to give a lecture and was asked a question that did not have a good answer when faced with facts outside of your thinking, he did the same thing I would do in that situation, think "feet do your stuff."
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:02:21 AM by Ratboy »

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 01:17:01 PM »
I am accused of "running away" all the time, but the conversation between  RE'ers and FE'ers is 100 to 1. I can't debate with everyone.
Yeah. You said that before. But this forum is not that busy. It took me 10 minutes this morning to catch up on all the threads in the 3 main sections which have had new posts overnight (in my overnight, I'm in the UK). It would take longer to reply to them all, admittedly, but not all of them require a response.

The point is Tom, you DO engage in debates, you just stop posting in the threads when you cannot answer the questions.
You've engaged in this thread but you haven't answered most of my questions about how the sun could work in the Flat Earth model - my questions come from reading your own Wiki so they are not answered there. You don't answer them because you can't.

You debated for quite some time about perspective in the "Clouds lit from below at sunset" thread and then stopped posting when I proved you wrong, I supplied photographic evidence to demonstrate how shadows and perspective really work. No response from you or any other flat earther since.

You have engaged in debates about your "Bishop experiment" but ignored responses showing videos where people demonstrate the curve by zooming in to distant buildings from various distances. There was an excellent one posted which I can't find right now, some guy zoomed in to the same tower from further and further away and it was clear that more and more of the building was obscured below the horizon. It was posted on here, no flat earther game a response. I'll find it later if you want another look. If you (you plural, you as an organisation) are serious about developing a flat earth model that actually works then you can't keep ignoring this stuff.

The fact is the flat earth model as it stands right now doesn't work on any level. It has to make all kinds of crazy leaps of logic (perspective explains sunsets and clouds lit from below, moonlight is cold, every space agency around the world is lying as, presumably, are the airline industry). It is based on the writings of some bloke in the Victorian era who clearly had a very limited knowledge of science and for some reason you treat it as Gospel. I have a feeling that at some level you realise this but you never quite admit it.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:57:16 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

totallackey

Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 07:13:01 PM »
I hope this is the right place for this. I've looked through the Wiki about the sun in the FE model. I have the following questions.


What is the empirical evidence for the sun's size (32 miles in diameter) and height (3000 miles above the plane of the earth)? I see a page in the Wiki reinterpreting the data from Eratosthenes' stick experiment, there is a link on that page to an article from Millersville University which  does the maths of that reinterpretation but that article concludes:

Quote
as we move from Florida to Pennsylvania, our distance from the sun increases by about 30%. As a consequence the apparent size of the sun should decrease by 30%. We see no noticeable change in the apparent size of the sun as we make the trip. We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work

If the sun really is only 3,000 miles above the earth then it should be fairly easy to prove that by measuring the angle of the sun at cities a couple of hundred miles apart and triangulating. The Wiki page actually notes this is a way to determine the distance to the sun. Has this been done? Can the evidence be provided if so?

What in the FE model powers the sun and keeps it shining? And if it is circling above the flat earth then what keeps it in the sky? Why doesn't it fall on us?

I see that seasons are explained by the circular motion changing so it is a tighter circle in summer and bigger circle in winter. What causes the sun to move between these orbits and what makes it speed up in winter and slow down in summer as it would have to as the circumference of the circle changes, otherwise the day / night cycle would change length

If the sun is a sphere then what causes the spotlight effect? The Wiki compares it to a lighthouse but in a lighthouse the light is focused by lenses. What focuses the light in the flat earth model and stops it shining over the whole earth?

It is stated that sunrise and sunset are an effect of perspective. How does that explain the effect of clouds lit from below as in this photo?



Perspective cannot explain that. For a shadow to be cast upwards the light source has to be PHYSICALLY below the object. I have provide some proof of that in this thread
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6875.160

Perspective also cannot make a distant object slowly sink below the horizon on a flat plane. I believe the claim in ENaG is that perspective only makes it appear as though an object is sunken into the horizon and magnification can make the object reappear but you can zoom into a sunset and still see the sun slowly sink below the horizon. If the sun is 3000 miles above the earth then that wouldn't happen. Maybe a scale model could be built and photos taken from the appropriate perspective to explain how this would work?

Thanks in advance.
Your pretty picture is simply the rays of the Sun reflecting off the Earth casting a shadow on the clouds underneath.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The Flat Earth Sun
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 08:31:05 PM »
If there was an ocean in front of the mountain, it could reflect the light up.  However, when you climb the mountain, how do you explain looking down to setting sun on that ocean?  And just like the ancients, you can watch the sun (and the moon) and see that it follows a steady speed across the sky at 12 hours here and 12 hours gone.  So you can guess where the sun will be and it will be lower than you.  At midnight it is directly underneath you to reappear at sunrise.  Try to explain this to someone in Chile that the sun is going to make a much bigger circle and be back in time to give them 12 hours of daylight, the same as that person in Australia.