[Rama Set]

@tom I never once called you a monster so spare me your shallow rhetoric. All I said was that if people are regularly risking rape and murder there has to be a good reason. I am no more an international economic and social development expert than you (although at least I don’t pretend to know the best course of action) The solution to helping Mexico’s people is likely not just one approach and until it is stabilized it seems humane to accept asylum seekers in a regulated fashion. Could you agree to that? Maybe you could also refrain from eye-rolling identity politics too? It tends to help.

You also might want to investigate a little deeper in to the results of US foreign aid. I have a good friend who studies it extensively and the results tend to be terrible.

[Pete Svarrior]

I see tensions are at an all-time high. Let me try to help by providing some quality commentary:

[Tom Bishop]

@tom I never once called you a monster so spare me your shallow rhetoric. All I said was that if people are regularly risking rape and murder there has to be a good reason. I am no more an international economic and social development expert than you (although at least I don’t pretend to know the best course of action)

What makes you think that these people even know the risks? Children certainly don't understand the matter.

The rivers and deserts in that area are off limits, even to American citizens on the American side. The government tends to close off places that have a reputation for people dying. The responsible thing to do is to enforce that.

Maybe you could also refrain from eye-rolling identity politics too? It tends to help.

How can I help it? The hypocrisy of the left is beyond belief.

[Rama Set]

@tom I never once called you a monster so spare me your shallow rhetoric. All I said was that if people are regularly risking rape and murder there has to be a good reason. I am no more an international economic and social development expert than you (although at least I don’t pretend to know the best course of action)

What makes you think that these people even know the risks? Children certainly don't understand the matter.

The evidence you already provided.  Women coming prepared with Plan B pills.

The rivers and deserts in that area are off limits, even to American citizens on the American side. The government tends to close off places that have a reputation for people dying. The responsible thing to do is to enforce that.

I dont quite understand, do you mean mexico needs to enforce this?  That sounds like a good idea, but out of international hands.

Maybe you could also refrain from eye-rolling identity politics too? It tends to help.

How can I help it?
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Rolling your eyes at liberals is a passive-aggressive way to create strife.  Strife is not good for consensus making.  You have been trying to use shaming instead of arguments to convince people here of your deeply partisan views for years, and it doesn't work.  Why don't you try and communicate with me without resorting to emotional tactics?

[Boots]

The hypocrisy of the left is beyond belief.

On this I wholeheartedly agree!

[Rama Set]

The hypocrisy of the left is beyond belief.

On this I wholeheartedly agree!

Pretty much anyone who claims a hard idealogical stance is going to be hypocritical sooner or later.  This applies equally to the left as the right.  For example you get a lot of conservatives supporting Trump.

[Boots]

The hypocrisy of the left is beyond belief.

On this I wholeheartedly agree!

Pretty much anyone who claims a hard idealogical stance is going to be hypocritical sooner or later.  This applies equally to the left as the right.

Yep. But sometimes the hypocrisy rises to extraordinary levels. This family separation debacle was one of those times.

For example you get a lot of conservatives supporting Trump.

I agree that a true social conservative being a hardcore Trump supporter seems a bit hypocritical. To hold your nose and support Trump because he seems better than the alternative doesn't seem that hypocritical to me.

[Rama Set]

Pretty much anyone who claims a hard idealogical stance is going to be hypocritical sooner or later.  This applies equally to the left as the right.

Yep. But sometimes the hypocrisy rises to extraordinary levels. This family separation debacle was one of those times.[/quote]

And the right has been unbelievably hypocritical in other instances.  Tell me when we get to the point?

For example you get a lot of conservatives supporting Trump.

I agree that a true social conservative being a hardcore Trump supporter seems a bit hypocritical. To hold your nose and support Trump because he seems better than the alternative doesn't seem that hypocritical to me.
[/quote]

Its actually the definition of hypocritical.  All you are admitting is that you find hypocrisy to be ok sometimes. All this aside, we can agree that families of asylum seekers should be kept together and that there is tragedy awaiting people who have to take underground railroads from the Mexican to the US border?

[Boots]

Pretty much anyone who claims a hard idealogical stance is going to be hypocritical sooner or later.  This applies equally to the left as the right.

Yep. But sometimes the hypocrisy rises to extraordinary levels. This family separation debacle was one of those times.

And the right has been unbelievably hypocritical in other instances.  Tell me when we get to the point?

For example you get a lot of conservatives supporting Trump.

I agree that a true social conservative being a hardcore Trump supporter seems a bit hypocritical. To hold your nose and support Trump because he seems better than the alternative doesn't seem that hypocritical to me.

Its actually the definition of hypocritical.  All you are admitting is that you find hypocrisy to be ok sometimes. All this aside, we can agree that families of asylum seekers should be kept together and that there is tragedy awaiting people who have to take underground railroads from the Mexican to the US border?

Why is it the very definition of hypocrisy to choose  the better of two evils?

I have always felt that families of illegal immigrants seeking asylum should be kept together. It is currently prohibited by legislation and the Executive Order issued by Trump did not fix that problem. So a proper solution is still needed.

I don't really know what your comment about underground railroads means. Can you explain?

Regarding my point, it was simply to agree with Tom that the hypocrisy of the left is beyond belief. He may have meant in general but my agreement was specific to their reaction to the family separation issue. I'm not sure why you're barging in to demand what my point is.

[Rama Set]

I didn’t barge in anywhere. I didn’t ask you what your point was until we were engaged in conversation. But no matter, I just find that when anyone calls out either side for being hypocritical in this current climate it’s pretty funny because both sides are so hideously hypocritical these days. Politicians can trust their base not to hold them to task for doing almost daily about faces on their promises and values and use justifications like, “the lesser of two evils” instead of seeking a new path.

The Underground Railroad was originally the network used to smuggle slaves from the US to Canada. Here I meant to indicate the smugglers and traffickers moving Mexicans to and across the border.

Ultimately the crocodile tears of the dems are irrelevant. Sthey only distract from action against the GOP and Trump, who currently are the most relevant group to influence.

[Boots]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

[Lord Dave]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

[Boots]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

[Lord Dave]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

And that is the problem with America's election system.  If you don't get your preferred candidate on the ballot, you already lost.


Sorry but if you failed to keep trump from winning the nomination, sucks for you.  Just don't vote and save us the hassle.

[Rama Set]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

I still disagree that Hillary was the greater of two evils, I don’t think either was a great candidate, what truly matter though is that the election is in the past and that Trump must be held accountable now, rather than piling on the politicking of the party who does not hold power. Decrying Dem hypocrisy in this debate is exactly what the American oligarchy wants because it continues the awful political deadlock gripping the country so that nothing ever gets accomplished. It doesn’t help that all this immigration business is being enacted via executive order (remember when Trump talked about how horrible that was? Yeah me too), so there isn’t a lot of recourse in the political process for the citizenry.

[Lord Dave]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

I still disagree that Hillary was the greater of two evils, I don’t think either was a great candidate, what truly matter though is that the election is in the past and that Trump must be held accountable now, rather than piling on the politicking of the party who does not hold power. Decrying Dem hypocrisy in this debate is exactly what the American oligarchy wants because it continues the awful political deadlock gripping the country so that nothing ever gets accomplished. It doesn’t help that all this immigration business is being enacted via executive order (remember when Trump talked about how horrible that was? Yeah me too), so there isn’t a lot of recourse in the political process for the citizenry.

Civil War 2!
Less Civil than before!

[Boots]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

I still disagree that Hillary was the greater of two evils,

That's fine. But my point is that a social conservative who felt that Hillary was the greater of two evils could vote for Trump without being hypocritical.

The democrats are clearly being hypocritical when they go into hysterics about the kids but aren't willing to do what is in their power to stop it. This fact exists independent of whether saying so is what the American oligarchy wants.

Trumps executive order doesn't accomplish anything useful and does not go against existing laws. Essentially all it says is that we will do our best to keep families together as long as we possibly can under the existing laws.

[Lord Dave]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

I still disagree that Hillary was the greater of two evils,

That's fine. But my point is that a social conservative who felt that Hillary was the greater of two evils could vote for Trump without being hypocritical.

The democrats are clearly being hypocritical when they go into hysterics about the kids but aren't willing to do what is in their power to stop it. This fact exists independent of whether saying so is what the American oligarchy wants.

Trumps executive order doesn't accomplish anything useful and does not go against existing laws. Essentially all it says is that we will do our best to keep families together as long as we possibly can under the existing laws.

As I said before, also remember that Democrats can't put any bills up for vote.  They have no power in that.  As such, all bills must be republican bills.  And until we actually read what's in these bills (I have not) its a moot point to call hypocrit. 

[Boots]

What exactly should a conservative have done to not be hypocritical in the last election? Abstained? Voted for the independent guy who held a crazy conversation with himself on a park bench?

Vote for someone else in the primary?

But of course. But that doesn't help much on election day does it?

I still disagree that Hillary was the greater of two evils,

That's fine. But my point is that a social conservative who felt that Hillary was the greater of two evils could vote for Trump without being hypocritical.

The democrats are clearly being hypocritical when they go into hysterics about the kids but aren't willing to do what is in their power to stop it. This fact exists independent of whether saying so is what the American oligarchy wants.

Trumps executive order doesn't accomplish anything useful and does not go against existing laws. Essentially all it says is that we will do our best to keep families together as long as we possibly can under the existing laws.

As I said before, also remember that Democrats can't put any bills up for vote.  They have no power in that.  As such, all bills must be republican bills.  And until we actually read what's in these bills (I have not) its a moot point to call hypocrit.

I agree it would be good to know what was in the bill which I don't. I'm going from the reports I heard which were that it did not include much beyond solving the family separation issue. But can't the Dems respond to a proposed bill with some recommended changes instead of flatly refusing because "we want to keep the focus on Trump?" And if they have a problem with the proposed bill why don't they explain what their problem is with it instead of just refusing to engage at all?

[Rama Set]

I agree it would be good to know what was in the bill which I don't. I'm going from the reports I heard which were that it did not include much beyond solving the family separation issue.

Why haven't you looked?

But can't the Dems respond to a proposed bill with some recommended changes instead of flatly refusing because "we want to keep the focus on Trump?" And if they have a problem with the proposed bill why don't they explain what their problem is with it instead of just refusing to engage at all?

Have you looked to see if criticism exists anywhere else than news reports?  It often does.  Why haven't you read the bill?

That's fine. But my point is that a social conservative who felt that Hillary was the greater of two evils could vote for Trump without being hypocritical.

If you don't support adultery but vote for Trump, you are being hypocritical by definition. That doesn't mean it is unethical to vote for Trump in some cases.  It can very much be ethical, but still hypocritical.

The democrats are clearly being hypocritical when they go into hysterics about the kids but aren't willing to do what is in their power to stop it. This fact exists independent of whether saying so is what the American oligarchy wants.

Trumps executive order doesn't accomplish anything useful and does not go against existing laws. Essentially all it says is that we will do our best to keep families together as long as we possibly can under the existing laws.
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