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Offline Tom Bishop

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Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« on: June 27, 2018, 09:20:28 AM »
An interesting video about the stars slowing down as they approach the horizon. At the 1:15 mark the author states that "the stars get significantly closer together as they get closer to the horizon."

This contradicts the Round Earth Theory that says that the celestial bodies move at a constant speed across the sky as the earth rotates. The official Round Earth excuse is, of course, that there is a permanent mirage effect that slows down the stars, and which also reverses any observation that suggests a Flat Earth.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 10:59:45 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2018, 01:51:34 PM »
So does the angular distance between stars decrease at the horizon

(1) because refraction only kicks in when light passing close to the earth; or
(2) because perspective only kicks in when light passing close to the earth?

If (2), why does Rowbotham say that the law of perspective is 'visible everywhere'? Or something like that?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 02:10:10 PM »
What do the astronomical textbooks and journals have to say on the matter?

Surely that should be the first port of call?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline edby

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 02:24:13 PM »
This may also help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
Quote
Whenever possible, astronomers will schedule their observations around the times of culmination, when celestial objects are highest in the sky. Likewise, sailors will not shoot a star below 20° above the horizon. If observations of objects near the horizon cannot be avoided, it is possible to equip an optical telescope with control systems to compensate for the shift caused by the refraction.
[..]
Atmospheric refraction of the light from a star is zero in the zenith, less than 1′ (one arc-minute) at 45° apparent altitude, and still only 5.3′ at 10° altitude; it quickly increases as altitude decreases, reaching 9.9′ at 5° altitude, 18.4′ at 2° altitude, and 35.4′ at the horizon;[4] all values are for 10 °C and 1013.25 hPa in the visible part of the spectrum.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 02:27:20 PM by edby »

Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 10:11:05 PM »
Why do they only get closer together vertically and not horizontally?  Why would observers from other latitudes see the stars slowing in a different axis?

I'd like to remind you once again that you are wearing glasses in your profile photo and thus should agree that optics is a well understood field.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2018, 05:21:08 PM »
This may also help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
Quote
Whenever possible, astronomers will schedule their observations around the times of culmination, when celestial objects are highest in the sky. Likewise, sailors will not shoot a star below 20° above the horizon. If observations of objects near the horizon cannot be avoided, it is possible to equip an optical telescope with control systems to compensate for the shift caused by the refraction.
[..]
Atmospheric refraction of the light from a star is zero in the zenith, less than 1′ (one arc-minute) at 45° apparent altitude, and still only 5.3′ at 10° altitude; it quickly increases as altitude decreases, reaching 9.9′ at 5° altitude, 18.4′ at 2° altitude, and 35.4′ at the horizon;[4] all values are for 10 °C and 1013.25 hPa in the visible part of the spectrum.



This looks suspiciously like an inverted Round Earth Drop Chart.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 05:41:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2018, 05:24:59 PM »
Its a graph of an exponential relationship. Not surprising in the slightest.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 06:12:43 PM »
Its a graph of an exponential relationship. Not surprising in the slightest.

It is certainly interesting that you guys say that the earth drops by an exponential function, and that there is also a permanent reversed exponential refraction effect that you guys pull out whenever there is an observation of a Round Earth that looks flat.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 07:20:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 06:19:16 PM »
Its a graph of an exponential relationship. Not surprising in the slightest.

It is certainly interesting that you guys say that the earth drops by an exponential function, and that there is also a permanent reversed exponential refraction effect that you guys pull out whenever there is an observation of a Round Earth that looks flat.
And you claim there's a 'perspective effect' that precisely mimics a setting sun on a round Earth regardless of weather, as well as something that perfectly keeps the sun/moon the same size throughout the day/night no matter anything else. Do you have evidence to suggest the data that created the set involving the refraction effect was faked or similar? Or do you just like your fallacy?

Rama Set

Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 06:37:36 PM »
Its a graph of an exponential relationship. Not surprising in the slightest.

It is certainly interesting that you guys say that the earth drops by an exponential function, and that there is also a permanent reversed exponential refraction effect that you guys pull out whenever there is an observation of a Round Earth that looks flat.

That's not why we are saying there is refraction.  There is refraction because of atmospheric density in this case.  Nice try though.  Empty try, but I have to admire your rearrangement of the deck chairs on the titanic.

Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 06:54:12 AM »
I sound like a broken record here, but you've stumbled onto a bit of scientific trivia that is not often taught but is, in fact, well-known. I would encourage you to simply restructure your approach when you encounter something like this. Instead of saying, "This contradicts the Round Earth Theory," try a slightly different approach like, "Can anyone explain this to me?" As you saw, there are plenty of people that can help you answer these questions. I don't see the need for the antagonism.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 09:32:46 AM »
An interesting video about the stars slowing down as they approach the horizon. At the 1:15 mark the author states that "the stars get significantly closer together as they get closer to the horizon."

This contradicts the Round Earth Theory that says that the celestial bodies move at a constant speed across the sky as the earth rotates.

It also contradicts your FE claim that they do too...

https://wiki.tfes.org/Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 11:24:16 AM »
An interesting video about the stars slowing down as they approach the horizon. At the 1:15 mark the author states that "the stars get significantly closer together as they get closer to the horizon."

This contradicts the Round Earth Theory that says that the celestial bodies move at a constant speed across the sky as the earth rotates.

It also contradicts your FE claim that they do too...

https://wiki.tfes.org/Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun

Actually the article does leave room for slowing a bit in the Flat Earth model:

"In FET the stars and celestial bodies are at such a great height that they have maximized the perspective lines. They are descending into the horizon at a consistent or near consistent velocity. As consequence they do not slow down in the distance by any significant degree, and hence the stars do not appear to change configuration and build up in the distance, nor does the sun or moon appear to slow as they approach the horizon. "

According to the Ancient Greek model of perspective they should slow by a much greater amount than demonstrated in the video.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 11:28:43 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 11:26:09 AM »
According to the Ancient Greek model of perspective they should slow by a much greater amount than demonstrated in the video.
Only if the stars are moving round above a flat plane.
If they are distant and the earth is rotating then that would perfectly explain the observations.
The slowing near the horizon is due to refraction.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 11:29:48 AM »
According to the Ancient Greek model of perspective they should slow by a much greater amount than demonstrated in the video.
Only if the stars are moving round above a flat plane.
If they are distant and the earth is rotating then that would perfectly explain the observations.
The slowing near the horizon is due to refraction.

I'm obviously talking about the Flat Earth model.

You quoted me a page of our Wiki which clearly leaves room for the stars to slow down. I would suggest reading carefully next time.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 11:35:17 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 11:30:21 AM »
An interesting video about the stars slowing down as they approach the horizon. At the 1:15 mark the author states that "the stars get significantly closer together as they get closer to the horizon."

This contradicts the Round Earth Theory that says that the celestial bodies move at a constant speed across the sky as the earth rotates.
Please show where "Round Earth Theory that says that the celestial bodies move at a" precisely "constant speed across the sky as the earth rotates."
Now read and study all of Lecture 1: Introduction to Astronomy 250. Especially the section that starts with:
Quote
When making precise measurements of stellar positions, various effects must be taken into account:
  • Aberration -- an object's position will be shifted slightly because of the finite speed of light and the observer's motion
                       
  • Refraction -- light gets bent (refracted) by the Earth's atmosphere, a star's altitude is increased by refraction. When the Sun is setting, it is actually beneath the horizon when its lower limb just appears to touch the horizon -- in other words, the refraction amounts to ~35', the apparent diameter of the Sun. Refraction depends on your altitude, the atmospheric conditions, and the wavelength of the observation.
                       

Quote from: Tom Bishop
The official Round Earth excuse is, of course, that there is a permanent mirage effect that slows down the stars, and which also reverses any observation that suggests a Flat Earth.
Sure, you call it an excuse but the deflection of objection near horizon has been observed for around 2 millennia.
Quote
Abstract
Astronomical refraction has had a long and fascinating history. Cleomedes (100 A.D.) and Ptolemy (200 A.D.) were aware of its existence and understood in a qualitative way some of its properties. Alhazen (1100 A.D.) quite correctly suggested that the flattening of the sun’s disk near the horizon was due to astronomical refraction. Tycho Brahe in 1587, however, was the first to make direct measurements of the magnitude of the refraction.

Astronomical Refraction–Some History and Theories, A. I. Mahan
So I would say that your claim that this slight variation due to long known refraction "contradicts the Round Earth Theory" is totally without foundation.

Not only that, but you claim "The official Round Earth excuse is, of course, that there is a permanent mirage effect << emotive term for 'slight refraction' >>" yet your own "Flat Earth Society Wiki" uses refraction to explain "Horizon Limits".
Quote
Horizon Limits with Refraction and Opacity
Horizon limits are easily explained by the fact that air is not transparent and refraction. As light travels through a denser medium, the object will appear to be smaller because light is refracted towards the normal. Furthermore, air is not transparent so it is not possible to see past a certain distance.
So this seems just another "strawman augment" from someone who has an imperfect and incomplete knowledge of so-called "Round Earth Theory".

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Offline AATW

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 11:34:03 AM »
According to the Ancient Greek model of perspective they should slow by a much greater amount than demonstrated in the video.
Only if the stars are moving round above a flat plane.
If they are distant and the earth is rotating then that would perfectly explain the observations.
The slowing near the horizon is due to refraction.

I'm obviously talking about the Flat Earth model.

In which case I agree. Using that model the stars' angular velocity should change as they recede into the distance.
They don't, ergo your model is wrong.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 11:41:19 AM »
In which case I agree. Using that model the stars' angular velocity should change as they recede into the distance.
They don't, ergo your model is wrong.

According to what evidence?

Discussions on how perspective scales according to the Ancient Greek perspective theory never ends well for you. There is no demonstration for the infinitely receding perspective lines, for which your "proofs" of things like "the sun can never set" and discussions like these depend upon. The perspective of the Ancient Greeks was a hypothesis.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 11:47:02 AM »
In which case I agree. Using that model the stars' angular velocity should change as they recede into the distance.
They don't, ergo your model is wrong.

According to what evidence?
According to every observation of a receding body conforming to the predictions of the perspective model used by basically everyone.
You are the one claiming that a high plane's angular velocity doesn't change. You are an empiricist, I assume that claim is based on your own observations.
Can we see the results of those observations? How have you measured the angular velocity of a high plane over time and shown it to be consistent?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline edby

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Re: Stars Slowing as they Approach the Horizon
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 12:14:28 PM »
Discussions on how perspective scales according to the Ancient Greek perspective theory never ends well for you.
There was never any 'Ancient Greek perspective theory '. Euclid wrote about geometry and optics. If FE is now a debating club, we need rules for debate. I propose a rule that every substantive claim should be backed by a citation. So, please cite a work by Euclid or any other ancient Greek that discusses perspective. Claims without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.