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Offline AATW

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The Final Experiment
« on: May 17, 2024, 11:43:50 AM »
I think this is the right place for this.
Are you aware of The Final Experiment?

https://www.the-final-experiment.com/

The aim is to send one globe earther and one flat earther to Antarctica to observe the 24 hour sun - which would be an issue for the monopole model. Or, if it doesn't occur would be an issue for the globe.

They have invited high profile people from both sides to participate - I didn't actually see anyone from here on the list, I think they're mostly going for YouTubers.
They say they're going to provide the funding for one person from each side, but others can join at their own expense - it was something like $30,000, so not cheap.

Any thoughts on this? Would any of you have liked to be invited or would be interested in going? Do you think this is a good experiment? If you observed the 24 hour sun in Antarctica would that change your mind about FE or would it just steer you towards a different FE model like the bi-polar one?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2024, 03:22:32 PM »
Dunno about this, AATW.  Yes, the ultimate experiment in theory, but the website makes Jeran look like George Lucas by comparison; no pages at all except a bunch of You-Tube links.  If this thing gets as far as the equator I'll eat my tinfoil hat. 

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2024, 03:24:00 PM »
Dunno about this, AATW.  Yes, the ultimate experiment in theory, but the website makes Jeran look like George Lucas by comparison; no pages at all except a bunch of You-Tube links.  If this thing gets as far as the equator I'll eat my tinfoil hat.
I saw an interview the bloke behind this did with FTFE. He sounded pretty serious. Agree the website isn't great though. One to keep an eye on.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2024, 09:48:34 PM »
I saw an interview the bloke behind this did with FTFE.
Ah, truly a duo of titans then. A guy whose entire livelihood relies on insisting that the Earth is round and calling his detractors idiots validated this other guy. Yes, quite, indubitably.

You watch too much YouTube. Seriously.

The aim is to send one globe earther and one flat earther to Antarctica to observe the 24 hour sun - which would be an issue for the monopole model.
It wouldn't, though. It's only an issue for the YouTubers' understanding of FE. It's an extremely low bar to set, and one that can be met without wasting a ton of donation money. Like, yeah, those guys are gonna see the Sun for an entire day, and it's gonna accomplish nothing.

Now, what would be interesting is to see how much money they embezzle out of the scheme 👀

Any thoughts on this? Would any of you have liked to be invited or would be interested in going?
I wouldn't go (entirely pointless, we already know the outcome), but I would love to offer independent scrutiny of their finances. I am openly sceptical, perhaps verging on hostile, so if they can open their books to me and get an admission that I saw no irregularities, that would surely boost their credibility. Well, within the limitations of how much credibility a faux-experiment with a predetermined outcome can have.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 10:03:14 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2024, 09:52:58 PM »
Oh, and for the sake of clarity: it's also very telling that the only people the YouTube channel refers to as potential FE'ers to be involved are known grifters with a financial incentive. Let's be blunt: this is a scam on both sides, and we should all be better than giving them any time out of our days.
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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2024, 10:14:16 PM »
It's on the internet, and you suspect its a scam?  Have you no faith in human kindness? 

I'm truly shocked by your cynicism, Pete.  Shocked. 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 10:16:29 PM »
Yeah, I know, there's probably a deeper underlying issue here. Why wouldn't I trust these upstanding people, especially after they publicly disclosed their financial incentives? It just doesn't make sense.
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Offline AATW

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2024, 05:02:03 PM »
You watch too much YouTube. Seriously.
This is certainly true, although I don't actually watch that much FE stuff on there.
I quite like Dave McKeegan, I've gone off SciManDan. Don't watch much of anyone else.

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It wouldn't, though. It's only an issue for the YouTubers' understanding of FE.
Well, firstly I'd note that there is no FE authority. The basis of this being chosen as the experiment was FE YouTubers agreeing that this observation would be problematic for FE.
So they might not understand your version of FET, but they would presumably say the same about you not understanding their version. Who is the authority here?
Secondly, I'd be interested how a 24 hours sun rotating in one direction around the observer at or near the Northern pole, and in the other direction at or near the Southern pole would work in the Monopole model. There's some stuff on the Wiki with light shining through a glass dome but I don't think that would actually explain this. The Bi-polar model may explain it better but creates a load of other issues in terms of how the sun moves and how that would match observations.

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It's an extremely low bar to set, and one that can be met without wasting a ton of donation money. Like, yeah, those guys are gonna see the Sun for an entire day, and it's gonna accomplish nothing.
I vaguely agree it won't achieve anything - my gut feel is the YouTubers who are conceding that this would be an issue for (their version of) FE would not actually concede the point if they made the observations, because cognitive dissonance.

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Now, what would be interesting is to see how much money they embezzle out of the scheme
The finances are interesting and unclear to me. Maybe the answer is in one of their YouTube videos but how this is being financed is unclear to me. There's no "Donate" button on the website, or if there is I couldn't see it. Maybe there's something about it in one of the videos but I'm not sure how they're raising the money. I agree that some scrutiny of that is appropriate.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2024, 06:27:31 PM »
Well, firstly I'd note that there is no FE authority. The basis of this being chosen as the experiment was FE YouTubers agreeing that this observation would be problematic for FE.
Yeah, I'm just suggesting that that's a critical flaw in the decision-making process, without claiming to be an authority myself. They'll run their experiment, they'll reach their conclusion (we both agree what it will be), and... what happens then?

The grifters on YouTube continue grifting - ceasing was never an option. Earnest FE'ers continue being FE'ers - after all, the experiment doesn't attempt to address anything meaningful. RE'ers are gonna strut around like pigeons and repeatedly proclaim victory (unchanged from the norm). So... what are we dropping $60k+ on here, exactly? And where is it coming from?

Right now, this has all the markings of an attempt at embezzlement. That is why I'm against it. Otherwise, I don't care what the YT crowd do - they don't affect real FE'ers in any way.

There's some stuff on the Wiki with light shining through a glass dome but I don't think that would actually explain this.
People get confused by the glass dome, I get that. As a visualisation, it has the same problem as trying to use a massively scaled-down ball to demonstrate gravity. The scaled-down FE model makes adjustments (replacing the atmolayer with a glass dome) to make it visually equivalent to the real efects of EA combined with internal reflection.

Of course, I'm entirely guessing as to what your objection might be here - but that's usually what it is.

That said - a small side point of objection here: that particular aspect of the model has a lot of tractions with groups other than ours, even ones that think we're FBI shills or whatever. Even comes up among the Twitter anti-vax deep-south crazies. The claim that they spoke to multiple FE'ers and nobody pointed this out to them is extremely suspicious to me.

I vaguely agree it won't achieve anything - my gut feel is the YouTubers who are conceding that this would be an issue for (their version of) FE would not actually concede the point if they made the observations, because cognitive dissonance.
Or because they're grifters with a financial incentive.

Mind you, the same goes for the RE'ers.

FTFE, the only participant so far, previously had some of his accounts blocked after some nasties porn-bombed him during a livestream. He immediately started crying for donations, explaining that he's disabled and that if the revenue from his online persona runs dry, he'd be left without a means to live. He's probably stuck with his "stupidity bad, i am very smart" schtick for the rest of his life.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 10:01:50 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline AATW

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2024, 06:55:44 PM »
Yeah, I'm just suggesting that that's a critical flaw in the decision-making process, without claiming to be an authority myself. They'll run their experiment, they'll reach their conclusion (we both agree what it will be), and... what happens then?
Well, I guess what happens is either the YouTubers concede the point and stop being flat earthers - they're the ones who agreed this observation would be a problem for their version of FE. Or, more likely, they don't and are exposed as grifters. I think either outcome is potentially useful. And I don't think this experiment is a bad one. It's an expected result in RE, it's not in (some versions of) FE - to the point that I've seen FE people deny the 24 hour sun in Antarctica occurs.

And I guess the point is who should this bloke have approached? Who is the authority in FE? Is it fair to say there isn't one? Your whole philosophy seems to be "don't ask me, you make your own observations and figure it out for yourself". While I think people should be encouraged to check things for themselves - which they are, throughout science classes you do experiments and make observations - you seem to have a "every man for himself" philosophy which I would suggest is why there seems to be so little consensus in the FE community. Not that I even know what "FE community" really means. You are sneering at YouTube FE'ers, questioning their sincerity. Don't some of them call you "controlled opposition"? It all feels a bit Judean People's Front vs the People's Front of Judea, from the outside.

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And where is it coming from?
This is a good question but as I said I couldn't see a "donate" button on the website. So why it could be an attempt at embezzlement, it's very unclear who they are embezzling from if so.


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People get confused by the glass dome, I get that. As a visualisation, it has the same problem as trying to use a massively scaled-down ball to demonstrate gravity. The scaled-down FE model makes adjustments (replacing the atmolayer with a glass dome) to make it visually equivalent to the real efects of EA combined with internal reflection.
I guess the issue is it doesn't seem to be a particularly good model of the reality. There are a couple of videos on the Wiki. One he shines a torch through the glass dome and from certain angles it illuminates half the "earth". But is a torch a good representation of a sun which shines in all directions? Is solid glass a reasonable approximation for the atmolayer in terms of the way light through the medium. And isn't the FE sun inside where the dome is and above and circling the earth - he seems to have to shine the light more from the side to get the effect. I get it's just a model, I'm just not sure how valid it is.
In the second video it claims to show how stars could rotate in different directions, but no rotation is actually shown, just a static shot - which does admittedly look like how star trails may look near the equator but they're not shown rotating.

In terms of the 24 hour sun at Antarctica, I'm struggling to visualise how that would work. In the monopole model:



So A is the north pole, the sun circles it. When it's going round the red circle then it can't be seen because of EA. Fine.
When it's going round the yellow circle it can be seen at all times and goes in a circle. Also fine.
But if you're at B or C then the red circle is your summer. I can't see how that circular route would be seen from those points going in the opposite direction to the circle it's actually tracing. A common FE approach to that has been to simply deny it occurs at all. You seem to be saying it could but I can't see how that would actually work.

The bi-polar model may solve that but it seems to me it would introduce a load of other problems in terms of matching observations.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2024, 02:22:33 AM »
Or, more likely, they don't and are exposed as grifters.
We already know they're grifters. They've been exposed mutliple times. Nothing changed. What makes this time special? How is a couple of RE'ers embezzling investing $60k going to change anything here? Please, be as specific as you can. I'd be fascinated to learn what the endgame here is!

In the meantime, no matter how much you try to idealise your friends here, they're going to accomplish very little here, other than personally get richer. They're not even swiping at FE.

And I guess the point is who should this bloke have approached?
Earnest FE'ers. There are plenty of them, and plenty of places to find them. Plenty of RE'ers who know where to find them, including some of the ones involved in the "experiment". The reason they chose not to utilise that ability? Well, I already told you my suspicions. I guess you could ask them? :)

Who is the authority in FE?
You keep clinging to this idea that there needs to be an "authority" in an expressly anti-authoritative movement. Demanding to speak to the general manager of anarchists. I can only wish you the best of luck with that, or point out that not all collectives adhere to your colonialist mindset.

Once you get serious about this, you could maybe try a different approach.

You are sneering at YouTube FE'ers, questioning their sincerity. Don't some of them call you "controlled opposition"? It all feels a bit Judean People's Front vs the People's Front of Judea, from the outside.
Does it, though? Are you really that stupid? Or are you just making a point because you think it makes you sound profound? After all, you already repeatedly voiced your opinions on people's sincerity here. Are you really going to pretend it's all up in the air now that it's convenient for you to do so? Do you think you'll be taken seriously if you do that?

Would you like me to start fishing out the stupidest people RE has to offer and pointing out that "welp, it's not like there's an authority on RE, so we should just treat these people as equal to everyone else 🤷‍♀️"? Let's face it - you would be very quick to decry it unfair.

But is a torch a good representation of a sun which shines in all directions?
Yes, once you consider EA and scale.

Is solid glass a reasonable approximation for the atmolayer in terms of the way light through the medium.
Yes, once you consider EA and scale.

And isn't the FE sun inside where the dome is and above and circling the earth - he seems to have to shine the light more from the side to get the effect.
Indeterminate.

In terms of the 24 hour sun at Antarctica, I'm struggling to visualise how that would work.
That's what the glass dome model is for - visualisation. You already saw it. You're perfectly capable of recalling that visualisation.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 02:46:17 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2024, 05:07:00 AM »
It would be nice if more experiments were performed on Antarcica. However, some here will recall the last trip to Antarctica experiment turned out to be a scam perpetuated by the RE'ers organizing it. People paid a lot of money to go and the organization just disappeared with the money.

See this video: CANCELED! Polar Explorer Event Fraud!



In this case for "The Final Experiment" they say that they welcome guests and if you want to go then to contact them to find out how much it will be. There are some rumors that they want $30K or something of that nature.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 05:16:09 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2024, 10:18:15 AM »
How is a couple of RE'ers embezzling investing $60k going to change anything here? Please, be as specific as you can. I'd be fascinated to learn what the endgame here is!
I've already outlined a couple of things that could happen. Neither would actually change much in the grand scheme of things, I never claimed it would.

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In the meantime, no matter how much you try to idealise your friends here, they're going to accomplish very little here, other than personally get richer.
Friends? I don't know any of these people, nor do I have much opinion of them. I was asking for your opinion.
Although how will they get richer? I can't see any way to donate to this. You may be right about this, but their financing is not at all clear.

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Earnest FE'ers. There are plenty of them, and plenty of places to find them.
And how does one determine who the earnest ones are? I'm not super convinced you lot are earnest.

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You keep clinging to this idea that there needs to be an "authority" in an expressly anti-authoritative movement.
I guess the point is there is no FE model about which there is consensus. YouTubers this bloke is engaging with are saying a 24 hour sun in Antarctica would be an issue for their FE model, which is the basis on which he picked that experiment. You're saying it's not an issue for your model. Well OK. Which model is right? It's a similar question to the above, who are the earnest ones and how does anyone tell?

RE doesn't have "an authority" either but there is a lot more consensus in mainstream science - about the basic stuff at least. No-one is debating how many poles there are, for example. Your Wiki outlines the monopole model in the FAQ but there's also a page about the bi-polar model. There's no debate about the layout of the continents or what Antarctica is.

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Does it, though?
Yes. You've got two groups of FE people both claiming that they are the "real" FE'ers and the other group aren't. You're calling them grifters, they're calling you controlled opposition. Who is right? How does anyone tell? I have my doubts about you lot, or certainly some of you. I have my doubts about them too.

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Would you like me to start fishing out the stupidest people RE has to offer and pointing out that "welp, it's not like there's an authority on RE, so we should just treat these people as equal to everyone else 🤷‍♀️"? Let's face it - you would be very quick to decry it unfair.
There is a difference. Most people don't even regard themselves as REers. I don't really. I'm not a Round Earther any more than I'm a water is wet-er. Most people believe the earth is a globe because that's what they were taught and don't really think about it, or need to. So sure, some very stupid people believe in RE but couldn't explain why. If you're a FE'er then by definition you have thought about it and come to a different view. It's more reasonable to ask a FE'er to explain how the earth can be flat and how all the technologies which (it is claimed) require a globe earth work than it is to ask the random man in the street how the earth can be rotating at 1,000mph at the equator without us feeling it.

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That's what the glass dome model is for - visualisation. You already saw it. You're perfectly capable of recalling that visualisation.
I don't know what this means. None of the glass dome videos on the Wiki show a 24 hour sun going in a circle around Antarctica.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2024, 10:19:51 AM »
In this case for "The Final Experiment" they say that they welcome guests and if you want to go then to contact them to find out how much it will be. There are some rumors that they want $30K or something of that nature.
The company they're using charge $30k for the trip, yes. It's unclear whether they're asking you to pay them the money to pass on to that company. If so then I'd agree that's pretty fishy, but I don't know that's the case.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: The Final Experiment
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2024, 04:21:52 PM »
I think this is the right place for this.
Are you aware of The Final Experiment?

https://www.the-final-experiment.com/

The aim is to send one globe earther and one flat earther to Antarctica to observe the 24 hour sun - which would be an issue for the monopole model. Or, if it doesn't occur would be an issue for the globe.

They have invited high profile people from both sides to participate - I didn't actually see anyone from here on the list, I think they're mostly going for YouTubers.
They say they're going to provide the funding for one person from each side, but others can join at their own expense - it was something like $30,000, so not cheap.

Any thoughts on this? Would any of you have liked to be invited or would be interested in going? Do you think this is a good experiment? If you observed the 24 hour sun in Antarctica would that change your mind about FE or would it just steer you towards a different FE model like the bi-polar one?


Have you not learned anything?

Do you really think that an observational experiment in Antarctica (24 hours sunlight) is going to end up moving the needle or changing anyone's mind either way (for those that are globe earth believers vs. those that are flat earth believers?)

The TFES wiki already provides a possible explanation for 24 hours sunlight in Antarctica via possible light patterns as demonstrated by the YouTube video showing the desktop experiment. If 24 hours is reported back, this may likely be (one of) the possible explanations you will receive.