Offline jimster

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2021, 11:12:07 PM »
Geometry, geo meaning earth and metry meaning measure. Invented to figure out where property lines were.

Each flat earth "model" solves one FE problem, but they contradict, so FE says, "just a model, still working on it" and does not have to invalidate FE. Same problem with nailing down the details. You have to consider only one thing at a time, explain it witha vague "truthy" FExplanation, and not dig any deeper.

Some guy on here is offering Amazon gift cards if some FE will stay with him through consistency checks and detail specification. I have thought of offering cash for someone who will learn RE geometry and explain day/night, seasons, 24 hour days at the poles, eclipses, north star latitude sextant etc.

Will some FE succeed in satisfying him while maintaining FE belief? RE will say he didn't, FE will say he did. Just like lib/conserv, Catholic/Protestant, Q/reality, etc.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:55:45 AM by jimster »

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2021, 06:17:13 AM »
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.

Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 02:36:18 PM »
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.

Don't forget direction. According to RET, the distance from Sydney to Cape Town is 11,000 km., AND the straight-line between them runs north of Antarctica, whereas FET would not only have the distance off by a factor of 2 or 3, but the straight line would run near India. Again - never discussed.

Offline scomato

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 03:37:03 PM »
Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

This forum is based upon the Bedford's canal experiment and its supposed flatness (for REs it's due to refraction). In general, FEs look at the sea and somehow discard the idea that the horizon ends abruptly because there's a frontal curvature, in favour of an undefined, as you say, "not-roundness". Given these cognitive premises, their problem is no more proving flatness, but if you'd explore the wiki you'd see that they are trying to unify many possible FE models. These models are very different, but there could be a disambiguation if pairwise distances among cities was taken into account, as you say. So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

My theory of Flat Earth(ers) is that it is a psychological reactance. It is not a structured belief system, or a science, or a cult or anything like that. It's an emergent response to a society that ridicules flat earth theories because they are incompatible with nearly all fields of modern science. We live in a society where we aggressively attack people who are scientifically wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

"Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion."

This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.

Offline fisherman

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 05:40:31 PM »

Quote
This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.

In other words, science isn't the boss of a flat earther.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

Offline jimster

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2021, 06:15:40 PM »
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.


Offline scomato

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.

It is exactly the same as trying to convince an anti-vaxxer that they are wrong. Or a Christian or Muslim or Jew that they are wrong. The more you try to convince them that their world view is incorrect it will be interpreted as an attack on their freedom of belief. This causes a psychological reactance / backfire effect where they believe in the thing more strongly, as it reinforces their perception of freedom of belief that they feel has become restricted. It is the same psychological effect that makes reverse psychology work, and why teenagers go out of their way to do the things they perceive as prohibited.

Any non-reactant Flat Earthers would not be Flat Earthers for very long given that it is so easily disproven, so there are only highly reactant Flat Earthers.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 06:33:41 PM by scomato »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2021, 07:36:07 PM »
You won't be able to convince someone that their belief system is wrong when there's nothing of significance at stake.  When you are sitting in your mother's basement playing on a computer all day, who cares what the actual shape of the world happens to be?  When it's time for you to put your money where your mouth is, then it becomes important. You could have a strong belief in your individual freedom of thought and feel you can believe in the flat earth, nothing wrong with that.  It does become significant when those beliefs have to be applied to actions that need to take place in the real world.  When your life and/or safety depends upon your beliefs would you change your mind? 


What if you had the belief that you had a flat gallbladder.  You went to the doctor and said I have some pain.  After a checkup your doctor says that his tests indicates that you have a bunch of gall stones.  You say 'that's impossible', I believe in a flat gallbladder and you can't have round stones in a flat gallbladder.  It's getting kind of ridiculous isn't it?  Someone with a particular belief that has never actually seen a gallbladder, even his own, is talking to someone who has and it's your life/safety on the line.  What about your belief system now?  There are times when you should stand up for your beliefs and there are times when you shouldn't. 


Would you stand up for your flat earth beliefs and would you depend upon what you say is an accurate flat earth map if you were about to take a journey across the Pacific Ocean in a boat?  That would be akin to lying to your doctor.  I know for sure that I would depend upon maps based upon a spherical earth, and GPS, also based upon a spherical earth, anywhere where my life & safety depended upon it.  This I know because I have done it at least a thousand times. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 01:22:00 AM by RonJ »
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Offline jimster

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2021, 07:09:06 PM »
Let's agree for the moment that the earth is flat, no argument.

Can we all agree that no one knows how to make a FE map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale? FE and RE agree on this, or show me the map.

Can we agree that a globe does have accurate distance, direction, and scale? If not, please advise on what does not match. Not saying the earth is round, just saying a theoretical RE model matches observations. I would love to hear how the RE model does not explain consistently.

I took a flight from Sydney Australia to LA. The time was within minutes of the time published in the schedule, published speed of the airliner multiplied by the time of the trip equaled the distance reported by google and the airline schedule. I took a string and measured the distance on a real globe and it matched the distance published in the schedule.

I have never seen a FE map where the distance between Sydney and LA was less than the range of any airliner. I do admit that this is extrapolated, as I have never seen a FE map with a scale.

Has anyone ever seen a FE map with a scale? 

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2021, 07:55:57 PM »
Let's agree for the moment that the earth is flat, no argument.

Can we all agree that no one knows how to make a FE map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale? FE and RE agree on this, or show me the map.

Can we agree that a globe does have accurate distance, direction, and scale? If not, please advise on what does not match. Not saying the earth is round, just saying a theoretical RE model matches observations. I would love to hear how the RE model does not explain consistently.

I took a flight from Sydney Australia to LA. The time was within minutes of the time published in the schedule, published speed of the airliner multiplied by the time of the trip equaled the distance reported by google and the airline schedule. I took a string and measured the distance on a real globe and it matched the distance published in the schedule.

I have never seen a FE map where the distance between Sydney and LA was less than the range of any airliner. I do admit that this is extrapolated, as I have never seen a FE map with a scale.

Has anyone ever seen a FE map with a scale?

I tried to tackle this with my 'SteelyBob ratio' - see earlier post https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13948.msg237441#msg237441

Precisely zero response from any FE advocate, presumably because venturing into the realms of verifiable distances is uncomfortable territory. After all, anybody, particularly in the southern hemisphere where the distortions are huge, could go for an east west drive, compare the odo in their car with the Google distance and see if a) it matches in which case the world is a globe or b) the distance corresponds to their latitude correction using the SteelyBob ratio, in which case the earth is indeed shaped like the monopole map. Funny that. 

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2021, 06:42:55 PM »
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2021, 07:23:24 PM »
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.

That page contain almost nothing except quotes and citations from contemporary sources. Feel free to go through them.

Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2021, 07:57:18 PM »
Glad I read the wiki.  Yes, the winds are strong, but the sources use terms like "consistent".  Yes, they blow East and West, but consistently so; East in polar regions, and west closer to the equator. 

The only use of the term "anomalous" that I could see is the subject heading and the wiki's opening premise. 

And the ocean current?  Not relevant to air-travel but really glad I know that now!  Apparently, the Southern Ocean current is the biggest movement of water on the planet because its just so huge but, and here's the interesting part; the surface current averages one knot! 

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2021, 01:49:18 AM »
All the Wiki shows is some reasons why flight times can vary.  These days the airlines have a flight planning section.  They will peruse satellite images of the weather conditions between points A and B.  A computer is used to quickly go thru a bunch of possible scenarios until the most fuel efficient route is found that will get the flight there on time.  Then a bunch of waypoints will be determined and sent to the pilot in command who will use it to program the flight director.  Once in the air the flight plan will be started.  Of course the weather is a highly dynamic thing and the pilot in command is perfectly able to alter the flight plan as necessary for the safety of the plane & passengers.  There may be some times when there's a known gate delay at the airport and the arriving flight slows down intentionally to save fuel and avoids having to wait in a holding area on the airport. 


What is not said is that perhaps 5% or 10% of the time there's little wind or other delays and the flight travels along the shortest path.  That happens on ships as well with light winds and perfectly calm seas for 10 to 15 days.  That's enough time for a trip between China and the USA or visa versa.  On those kinds of voyages you can easily verify that the distances between two ports are very accurate.  Additionally each and every turn of a ship's propeller is counted.  A propeller has a known pitch and will move thru the water a specific distance with each turn.  Now you have another distance verification. 


Round earth charts are very accurate.  GPS is accurate.  Distances are known between 2 points on the earth and have been confirmed even if those points have 1000's of miles of oceans between them.  After countless trips across the oceans I can personally confirm how things work and have experienced them myself. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 03:59:51 PM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2021, 03:20:45 PM »
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.

That page contain almost nothing except quotes and citations from contemporary sources. Feel free to go through them.

Yet not a single quote says anything that changes the fact that distances are known and flight times are predictable save one that talks about ground and taxi time.
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

Offline jimster

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2021, 05:21:31 PM »
So the answer to my OP from FE seems to be no one knows distances. Tom Bishop, is that your final answer?

Charles Lindbergh had to know how much gas he needed. And he got there. He knew how far it was and where it was. When an airliner flies over the Atlantic, gps is constantly on, reporting position to the pilot and air traffic controllers.

Are people all over the world using gps? Are there massive numbers of complaints that it doesn't work? Do airplanes and ships use gps as they travel? Do you have any reason to believe that gps will not show you your location accurately on a systematic consistent basis? How could it show wrong and people not notice?

If gps is accurate everywhere, or even in most places, how can you not know the distance? A person in New York's gps says he is in New York, a person in Paris says they are in Paris, both can confirm gps is correct. How can it know accurately where both people are without being able to know the distance?

If you are going to allege that gps is conspiratorially distorted, how can it identify people everywhere as being where they know they are and change gradually from one place to another as you travel? And if it is monkeyed with somehow, you can find that out. You can buy a usb gps receiver and download multiple different open source gps programs from github. You can look at the algorithms and the live data from satellites. You can find the monkey business.

US Geodetic survey data base of geodetic markers and topo maps. Astral navigation. gps. Globe map. Tom Bishop, show us how they don't match up, and then explain why a world based on those things works and why no one notices the discrepancies?.

Not looking for a random out of context quote from an unknown scientist. Looking for the details of why this system seems to work for everyone and yet it is wrong.


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Offline RonJ

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2021, 06:09:27 PM »
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2021, 06:26:36 PM »
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     

These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 06:28:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2021, 06:36:03 PM »
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     

These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 06:41:06 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2021, 06:45:50 PM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.