The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: jimster on March 11, 2019, 09:25:52 PM

Title: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on March 11, 2019, 09:25:52 PM
Pick out some major cities and check multiple sources to determine their distance apart. I Suggest Stockholm, Moscow, Cairo, Capetown, Lisbon, and Tehran.

Get some washers and string and mark each washer with the city name. The strings must be scale distance long after tying to the washer. Try 1 inch = 500 miles, easier math with 1 cm - 500 miles.

Look up the distances between ALL the cities (this will insure accuracy) and tie a string of that length between the city/washers.

Now put it on a flat flat flat table and stretch the strings tight. When you have all strings tight, the city/washers are located at their true relative positions. Once you have the true relative positions, it should be easy to continue the technique and locate all cities accurately and see how the map is oriented.

If at first it seems impossible to get all strings tight, keep trying! It may take hours, keep going, don't stop.

If you do eventually despair, try putting a deflated balloon under your city/washer string net and inflating the balloon. You may find that as the balloon becomes a globe, making all the strings tight works much better on a curved surface.

If you can make all the strings stretch tight on a flat surface, you have proved FE and are well on your way to a FE map!
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 25, 2021, 10:30:16 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculation of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tumeni on April 25, 2021, 11:05:08 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons: ... Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

How would you suggest that would be resolved? How would you and the other get to a point where you agree on distances?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: c0i9z on April 25, 2021, 11:32:20 PM
"Stockholm, Moscow, Cairo, Capetown, Lisbon, and Tehran" were the suggested cities. All of them are within the Europe/Africa/Asia continent mass. None of them require crossing oceans to access and they can all be reached on foot, given enough time. No need for planes. And the distances were certainly not measured with planes.

The point about speed, we should put aside. It seems to be a red herring as no one has mentioned doing anything relating to speed. Only distance.

Given that your three reasons appear to be irrelevant to this discussion, do you have any more excuses as to why the proposed experiment is invalid? Especially as it sounds like you're pre-emptively expecting it to fail when done on a flat surface..
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on April 26, 2021, 09:35:44 AM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis


Ah, yes, the "said to be anomalous" winds. 

You may remember this thread from pre-Covid; 

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15877.0

LATAM, and Qantas, 2 commercial organisations that depend on knowing the distance from (for instance) Santiago, Chile, to Sydney, Australia, didn't seem to have any problem predicting the winds when they were operating their 3-times weekly return-service between the 2 cities.  Its stretching credibility somewhat to think that the winds would provide an anomalous advantage in both directions on demand. 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on April 26, 2021, 11:34:48 AM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Distances are indeed the fundamental point of contention here Tom. Let's not muddy things with vague statements like 'the winds are said to be anomalous...'. Let's stick to precise, verifiable things, like overland distances.

Can we agree on some distances? In the wiki it says that the estimation for the circumference of the globe earth is in fact the diameter of the flat earth, given in the wiki as 25,000 (presumably statute) miles. If we use that on the monopole FE map, that would retain the relationship between latitude and distances measured in nautical miles, whereby one minute of latitude is one nautical mile. 360 degrees x 60 minutes = 21,600 nautical miles, which is as near as doesn't matter to 25,000 statue miles - so far so good. So north-south distances on the two systems match up. It also appears from the monopole map that the lat and long of places has been preserved, meaning that places that are north-south of each other on the globe earth are also that way aligned on the FE map.

To keep things simple, I'll treat the round earth as a pure sphere (ignoring its oblateness) and I'll use 3440nm as a globe radius, which would give us a circumference of 24,873 statute miles - again, close enough for our purposes here. I'll keep things in nautical miles from now on.

So we can say the monopole flat earth as shown in the wiki has a flat diameter of 2πr=21,614nm, where r=3440nm - that lines up with the wiki and gives us the means to compare the two representations of the earth. At the centre of the map, in the 'north', longitudinal distances will be compressed, and at the southern extremes, they will be stretched out. At 90 degrees south, at the 'edge' / ice wall / whatever, the circumference of the monopole FE is π x diameter, or or 2π2r = 67902nm.

So now let's make a formula for working out the ratio between longitudinal distances measured on a conventional globe and those measured on a monopole flat earth. Let's define 'ϕ' as our latitude in degrees, measured from the equator with positive angles referring to the northern hemisphere. For a given ϕ, the circumference of a circle of latitude on a globe earth is given by cos(ϕ) x 21,614. On the monopole FE, it comes out at 377.2 x (90-ϕ). So divide one by the other and we get the 'SteelyBob ratio', which you are welcome to add to the wiki:

SteelyBob ratio = (90-ϕ) / (57.3 cos ϕ)

So, for example, at 55 degrees north over here in the UK, the SteelyBob ratio works out at 1.06. So if the world really was shaped like the monopole FE map suggests, you might notice a small 6% discrepancy in distances travelled East-West, if the map you used to plan the journey was, like pretty much every map or satnav there is, based on a globe earth.

As we head further south, the discrepancy becomes far more noticeable. At the equator, ϕ=0, the SteelyBob ratio is already 1.57, meaning east-west journeys are 57% longer than would be expected from a globe earth map. Head further south and it gets whole lot worse. At the same latitude as Santiago and Sydney, ϕ=-33, the SteelyBob ratio is 2.56, meaning the flights mentioned below would have an extra 1.56 miles to travel for every planned mile - that's some serious anomalous winds, Tom.

But it's simpler just to talk about land masses. The Falkland Islands, for example, are about 140 nautical miles across, east to west, measured on a globe. They are around 52 degrees south, so have a SteelyBob ratio of 4.02, so the monopole FE map is seriously proposing that the Falklands are in fact 560nm across. That means the famous 'yomp' across East Falkland, carried out 45 Commando, royal marines, in 1982, was actually 4 times further than anybody realised. These lads did it in 4 days, which is pretty good for a 480km hike in full kit. Some would say completely impossible... https://en.mercopress.com/2014/03/25/falklands-yomp-recreated-by-royal-marines-from-hms-protector (https://en.mercopress.com/2014/03/25/falklands-yomp-recreated-by-royal-marines-from-hms-protector)

It's interesting, on a recent thread discussing this area of the earth I made some estimates which I've now realised were wrong - I held the equatorial circumference of the two systems to be the same, but of course they aren't, as I've shown here. So my maths for the ratio gave an underestimate. Always happy to correct mistakes, so here we are.

So, there we go - the SteelyBob ratio. What do you think, Tom? Agree with my maths? Interested in your thoughts. Have I represented the translation between the monopole FE map and the globe earth correctly?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: AATW on April 26, 2021, 12:40:43 PM
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

They aren't though, are they? They're only in contention because you're refusing to accept the known distances. And it's obvious why you're doing that - if the known distances are correct then the earth can't be flat because those distances simply don't work on a flat earth.

What you're basically claiming is that the global airline and shipping industry don't know how far they're travelling, or they don't know how fast. It's a ridiculous claim. I went on a cruise a while back and the Captain did a talk. He was explaining how they basically just use GPS these days. They do keep paper charts too, by law they have to, but I'm sure they'd have noticed if GPS wasn't working at sea or the islands they're supposed to be visiting weren't where they thought they were. Same with airlines. When you go on a long haul flight they often have a map option in the entertainment system which shows you where you are, how fast you're going and estimated time to arrival. To do all that you have to know where you are, how far it is to your destination and how fast you're going. To claim that none of this really works is absurd. There are whole industries that rely on it working.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on April 26, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
I went on a cruise a while back and the Captain did a talk. He was explaining how they basically just use GPS these days. They do keep paper charts too, by law they have to, but I'm sure they'd have noticed if GPS wasn't working at sea or the islands they're supposed to be visiting weren't where they thought they were.

Take a cruise to Alaska.  Most ships have a bridge observation deck.  You can watch as, at night, in fog, the ship follows the GPS line precisely through the narrow waters of the inside passage.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: stevecanuck on April 26, 2021, 03:04:31 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis


Ah, yes, the "said to be anomalous" winds. 

You may remember this thread from pre-Covid; 

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15877.0

LATAM, and Qantas, 2 commercial organisations that depend on knowing the distance from (for instance) Santiago, Chile, to Sydney, Australia, didn't seem to have any problem predicting the winds when they were operating their 3-times weekly return-service between the 2 cities.  Its stretching credibility somewhat to think that the winds would provide an anomalous advantage in both directions on demand.

And it's not just the distance, but direction was well. RE vs. FE direction between locations is radically different.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: nthurd on April 26, 2021, 03:55:33 PM
Would FE vs. RE not simplify to "prove sufficient number of google maps land distances, sufficiently wrong, using a mechanical odometer"?

I must be missing something, seems like the easisest way to achieve everlasting glory.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: RonJ on April 26, 2021, 03:56:05 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
You can contend that distances at sea are not known all you want, but that is completely wrong.  What are your qualifications for making a statement like that?  If your qualifications were sufficient then your contentions must be just for trolling purposes.  Without sufficient navigational experience & qualifications your contentions are irrelevant and should be considered shit posting.  I can make this statement from the point of view of an experienced navigator with lots of time at sea working on ships and as pilot in command of aircraft.  Celestial navigation works well when weather conditions are right but GPS works even better under just about all conditions.  Modern ships & airplanes use GPS and the positions and distances measured are very accurate.  If they were not then ships could and would run aground while navigating in foggy conditions.  I can well remember leaving San Francisco in very foggy conditions and navigating under the Golden Gate bridge in fog so thick that we didn't see the bridge until we were directly under it on a ship that was nearly 1000 feet long.  The bottom line is that there can be no doubt about the measured distances anywhere in the world.  Please supply any verifiable evidence you have that could refute my contentions. If those contentions can be verified then you would be doing a great service to the maritime industry that depends on very accurate positions and distances to operate huge ships. 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on April 26, 2021, 05:10:20 PM
Would FE vs. RE not simplify to "prove sufficient number of google maps land distances, sufficiently wrong, using a mechanical odometer"?

I must be missing something, seems like the easisest way to achieve everlasting glory.

You are not missing anything. You could take a drive somewhere in Australia, for example, on an east west road between two towns, and observe that the odo reads roughly 2.5 times the distance shown by Google, or indeed your old road atlas, or any globe earth sourced distance data.

With this data in hand, you could repeat the feat in a variety of vehicles, get it all verified and achieve global fame. As long as you cite the SteelyBob ratio, I'm cool with you using it too.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: TomInAustin on April 26, 2021, 07:30:11 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
You can contend that distances at sea are not known all you want, but that is completely wrong.  What are your qualifications for making a statement like that?  If your qualifications were sufficient then your contentions must be just for trolling purposes.  Without sufficient navigational experience & qualifications your contentions are irrelevant and should be considered shit posting.  I can make this statement from the point of view of an experienced navigator with lots of time at sea working on ships and as pilot in command of aircraft.  Celestial navigation works well when weather conditions are right but GPS works even better under just about all conditions.  Modern ships & airplanes use GPS and the positions and distances measured are very accurate.  If they were not then ships could and would run aground while navigating in foggy conditions.  I can well remember leaving San Francisco in very foggy conditions and navigating under the Golden Gate bridge in fog so thick that we didn't see the bridge until we were directly under it on a ship that was nearly 1000 feet long.  The bottom line is that there can be no doubt about the measured distances anywhere in the world.  Please supply any verifiable evidence you have that could refute my contentions. If those contentions can be verified then you would be doing a great service to the maritime industry that depends on very accurate positions and distances to operate huge ships.

Tom has been singing that same song as long as I have been here.  Silly as it is, he uses it to disarm any and all threads that talk about how simple a map is to make with known distances.

Let's not forget his famous "The distance from New York to Paris is not known" 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on April 26, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
Today's marine traffic map.

(https://i.imgur.com/1zn6ilC.png)

All those vessels and none of them know how far they are traveling or at what speed. ::)

Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on April 26, 2021, 07:59:00 PM

Tom has been singing that same song as long as I have been here.  Silly as it is, he uses it to disarm any and all threads that talk about how simple a map is to make with known distances.


He can never give up that fight.  To admit that, unlike 1870, we can accurately determine distance anywhere on earth is to admit that the earth is not flat.  "Distances are unknown" will always be a tenet of TFES.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on April 27, 2021, 08:28:15 AM

Ah, yes, the "said to be anomalous" winds. 


The stupid thing about the "anomalous winds" defense is that there's nothing 'anomalous' about them.  The aren't unexpected or out of the norm.  Yes, sometimes they are great.  Sometimes they are not.  What matters is that they are predictable and measurable and can be accounted for in any distance/time estimations. Evidently Tom has never had a pilot come on the air and say, "Sorry folks.  We were a little late pushing back from the gate.  However, we have a nice tailwind today, so we should be able to make up some time along the way and get you to your destination on time."
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on April 28, 2021, 12:39:01 AM
I find it impressive that RE distances are known through: astral navigation, time/speed/distance with a car, with a plane, with a boat, gps, geodetic survey, anyone think of some more ways? I have checked, they match perfectly. What my phone says, google maps, shooting the north star with an inclinometer, flawless match. Boats and planes seem to get where they want to go and have a pretty good idea of how long it will take.

Tom Bishop would probably never get on a boat, they have no idea where they are or where they are going, and he supports a bi-polar map, so no ice wall for Tom, he could sail off the edge.

Tom Bishop going on a car journey: his passenger says "when will we get there?" Tom says, "No one can ever know."

Really Tom, do you ever drive someplace and use google maps to plan the trip? Did it work? When you got there did your cell phone gps match? Did that match google maps? There is a geodesic marker somewhere near everyone, did that match? Inclinometer shooting north star match latitude per google and other sources?

Do you ever fly on a plane, if so do you get on thinking they have no idea how to navigate? Or do you trust that the conspiracy (pilot? nasa? avionics manufacturer? FAA?) will send you to your destination by secret clever gadgets fooling the operators yet successful arrival?

If only some FE could figure out the real distances, they would have something to say other than "RE not true", "no one knows", "unknown forces" and "conspiracy!". But I think we know why they can't.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on April 28, 2021, 05:01:30 PM
Tom Bishop going on a car journey: his passenger says "when will we get there?" Tom says, "No one can ever know."

I believe Toms says, "As long as we don't encounter any anomalous winds we should be there in X." would be more accurate.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on April 28, 2021, 05:35:05 PM
Tom Bishop often explains some FE issue with a brief glib, yet at least remotely plausible FExplanation - such as anomolous winds aloft speeding planes in both directions. Then some RE shoots big holes in his explanation. In typical FE fashion, no further discussion, if you press them, they say "we already answered that." And they literally did, just not in a complete, consistent, detailed way, no proof (except "it has to be because the earth is flat", or in any way satisfying answer. FE is a one layer system. The FE never is required to continue the debate beyond his vaguely plausible answer. You see the same thing with politicians, not so much with scientists.

Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

Claiming it is scientific is what makes REs that come here to patiently explain become angry.

When all your debates end in you lending the debate, changing the subject, repeating the same answer and insisting it be accepted, you are not winning the debate.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Bikini Polaris on April 28, 2021, 10:46:13 PM
Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

This forum is based upon the Bedford's canal experiment and its supposed flatness (for REs it's due to refraction). In general, FEs look at the sea and somehow discard the idea that the horizon ends abruptly because there's a frontal curvature, in favour of an undefined, as you say, "not-roundness". Given these cognitive premises, their problem is no more proving flatness, but if you'd explore the wiki you'd see that they are trying to unify many possible FE models. These models are very different, but there could be a disambiguation if pairwise distances among cities was taken into account, as you say. So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on April 28, 2021, 11:12:07 PM
Geometry, geo meaning earth and metry meaning measure. Invented to figure out where property lines were.

Each flat earth "model" solves one FE problem, but they contradict, so FE says, "just a model, still working on it" and does not have to invalidate FE. Same problem with nailing down the details. You have to consider only one thing at a time, explain it witha vague "truthy" FExplanation, and not dig any deeper.

Some guy on here is offering Amazon gift cards if some FE will stay with him through consistency checks and detail specification. I have thought of offering cash for someone who will learn RE geometry and explain day/night, seasons, 24 hour days at the poles, eclipses, north star latitude sextant etc.

Will some FE succeed in satisfying him while maintaining FE belief? RE will say he didn't, FE will say he did. Just like lib/conserv, Catholic/Protestant, Q/reality, etc.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on April 29, 2021, 06:17:13 AM
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: stevecanuck on April 29, 2021, 02:36:18 PM
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.

Don't forget direction. According to RET, the distance from Sydney to Cape Town is 11,000 km., AND the straight-line between them runs north of Antarctica, whereas FET would not only have the distance off by a factor of 2 or 3, but the straight line would run near India. Again - never discussed.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: scomato on April 29, 2021, 03:37:03 PM
Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

This forum is based upon the Bedford's canal experiment and its supposed flatness (for REs it's due to refraction). In general, FEs look at the sea and somehow discard the idea that the horizon ends abruptly because there's a frontal curvature, in favour of an undefined, as you say, "not-roundness". Given these cognitive premises, their problem is no more proving flatness, but if you'd explore the wiki you'd see that they are trying to unify many possible FE models. These models are very different, but there could be a disambiguation if pairwise distances among cities was taken into account, as you say. So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

My theory of Flat Earth(ers) is that it is a psychological reactance. It is not a structured belief system, or a science, or a cult or anything like that. It's an emergent response to a society that ridicules flat earth theories because they are incompatible with nearly all fields of modern science. We live in a society where we aggressively attack people who are scientifically wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

"Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion."

This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: fisherman on April 29, 2021, 05:40:31 PM

Quote
This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.

In other words, science isn't the boss of a flat earther.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on April 30, 2021, 06:15:40 PM
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.

Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: scomato on May 01, 2021, 06:31:54 PM
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.

It is exactly the same as trying to convince an anti-vaxxer that they are wrong. Or a Christian or Muslim or Jew that they are wrong. The more you try to convince them that their world view is incorrect it will be interpreted as an attack on their freedom of belief. This causes a psychological reactance / backfire effect where they believe in the thing more strongly, as it reinforces their perception of freedom of belief that they feel has become restricted. It is the same psychological effect that makes reverse psychology work, and why teenagers go out of their way to do the things they perceive as prohibited.

Any non-reactant Flat Earthers would not be Flat Earthers for very long given that it is so easily disproven, so there are only highly reactant Flat Earthers.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: RonJ on May 01, 2021, 07:36:07 PM
You won't be able to convince someone that their belief system is wrong when there's nothing of significance at stake.  When you are sitting in your mother's basement playing on a computer all day, who cares what the actual shape of the world happens to be?  When it's time for you to put your money where your mouth is, then it becomes important. You could have a strong belief in your individual freedom of thought and feel you can believe in the flat earth, nothing wrong with that.  It does become significant when those beliefs have to be applied to actions that need to take place in the real world.  When your life and/or safety depends upon your beliefs would you change your mind? 


What if you had the belief that you had a flat gallbladder.  You went to the doctor and said I have some pain.  After a checkup your doctor says that his tests indicates that you have a bunch of gall stones.  You say 'that's impossible', I believe in a flat gallbladder and you can't have round stones in a flat gallbladder.  It's getting kind of ridiculous isn't it?  Someone with a particular belief that has never actually seen a gallbladder, even his own, is talking to someone who has and it's your life/safety on the line.  What about your belief system now?  There are times when you should stand up for your beliefs and there are times when you shouldn't. 


Would you stand up for your flat earth beliefs and would you depend upon what you say is an accurate flat earth map if you were about to take a journey across the Pacific Ocean in a boat?  That would be akin to lying to your doctor.  I know for sure that I would depend upon maps based upon a spherical earth, and GPS, also based upon a spherical earth, anywhere where my life & safety depended upon it.  This I know because I have done it at least a thousand times. 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on May 10, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Let's agree for the moment that the earth is flat, no argument.

Can we all agree that no one knows how to make a FE map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale? FE and RE agree on this, or show me the map.

Can we agree that a globe does have accurate distance, direction, and scale? If not, please advise on what does not match. Not saying the earth is round, just saying a theoretical RE model matches observations. I would love to hear how the RE model does not explain consistently.

I took a flight from Sydney Australia to LA. The time was within minutes of the time published in the schedule, published speed of the airliner multiplied by the time of the trip equaled the distance reported by google and the airline schedule. I took a string and measured the distance on a real globe and it matched the distance published in the schedule.

I have never seen a FE map where the distance between Sydney and LA was less than the range of any airliner. I do admit that this is extrapolated, as I have never seen a FE map with a scale.

Has anyone ever seen a FE map with a scale? 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on May 10, 2021, 07:55:57 PM
Let's agree for the moment that the earth is flat, no argument.

Can we all agree that no one knows how to make a FE map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale? FE and RE agree on this, or show me the map.

Can we agree that a globe does have accurate distance, direction, and scale? If not, please advise on what does not match. Not saying the earth is round, just saying a theoretical RE model matches observations. I would love to hear how the RE model does not explain consistently.

I took a flight from Sydney Australia to LA. The time was within minutes of the time published in the schedule, published speed of the airliner multiplied by the time of the trip equaled the distance reported by google and the airline schedule. I took a string and measured the distance on a real globe and it matched the distance published in the schedule.

I have never seen a FE map where the distance between Sydney and LA was less than the range of any airliner. I do admit that this is extrapolated, as I have never seen a FE map with a scale.

Has anyone ever seen a FE map with a scale?

I tried to tackle this with my 'SteelyBob ratio' - see earlier post https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13948.msg237441#msg237441 (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13948.msg237441#msg237441)

Precisely zero response from any FE advocate, presumably because venturing into the realms of verifiable distances is uncomfortable territory. After all, anybody, particularly in the southern hemisphere where the distortions are huge, could go for an east west drive, compare the odo in their car with the Google distance and see if a) it matches in which case the world is a globe or b) the distance corresponds to their latitude correction using the SteelyBob ratio, in which case the earth is indeed shaped like the monopole map. Funny that. 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: TomInAustin on May 11, 2021, 06:42:55 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 11, 2021, 07:23:24 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.

That page contain almost nothing except quotes and citations from contemporary sources. Feel free to go through them.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on May 11, 2021, 07:57:18 PM
Glad I read the wiki.  Yes, the winds are strong, but the sources use terms like "consistent".  Yes, they blow East and West, but consistently so; East in polar regions, and west closer to the equator. 

The only use of the term "anomalous" that I could see is the subject heading and the wiki's opening premise. 

And the ocean current?  Not relevant to air-travel but really glad I know that now!  Apparently, the Southern Ocean current is the biggest movement of water on the planet because its just so huge but, and here's the interesting part; the surface current averages one knot! 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: RonJ on May 12, 2021, 01:49:18 AM
All the Wiki shows is some reasons why flight times can vary.  These days the airlines have a flight planning section.  They will peruse satellite images of the weather conditions between points A and B.  A computer is used to quickly go thru a bunch of possible scenarios until the most fuel efficient route is found that will get the flight there on time.  Then a bunch of waypoints will be determined and sent to the pilot in command who will use it to program the flight director.  Once in the air the flight plan will be started.  Of course the weather is a highly dynamic thing and the pilot in command is perfectly able to alter the flight plan as necessary for the safety of the plane & passengers.  There may be some times when there's a known gate delay at the airport and the arriving flight slows down intentionally to save fuel and avoids having to wait in a holding area on the airport. 


What is not said is that perhaps 5% or 10% of the time there's little wind or other delays and the flight travels along the shortest path.  That happens on ships as well with light winds and perfectly calm seas for 10 to 15 days.  That's enough time for a trip between China and the USA or visa versa.  On those kinds of voyages you can easily verify that the distances between two ports are very accurate.  Additionally each and every turn of a ship's propeller is counted.  A propeller has a known pitch and will move thru the water a specific distance with each turn.  Now you have another distance verification. 


Round earth charts are very accurate.  GPS is accurate.  Distances are known between 2 points on the earth and have been confirmed even if those points have 1000's of miles of oceans between them.  After countless trips across the oceans I can personally confirm how things work and have experienced them myself. 
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: TomInAustin on May 12, 2021, 03:20:45 PM
Your assumed distances are fallacious for a few reasons:

- People aren't walking across the oceans
- Planes use jet streams to reach far off locations
- The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion

The translation to a FE model may be attributable to a number of possibilities. For example; if the outer edges of the FE celestial system are moving at a quicker speed over the Earth like the outer extremities of a record on a record player, then it stands that the upper atmosphere may be as well. A plane traveling in a high region of atmosphere may move faster in certain regions of the Earth than another.

And indeed, the winds are said to be anomalous in the South - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Please show a paper by a scientist that shows what you said to be true.

That page contain almost nothing except quotes and citations from contemporary sources. Feel free to go through them.

Yet not a single quote says anything that changes the fact that distances are known and flight times are predictable save one that talks about ground and taxi time.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on May 23, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
So the answer to my OP from FE seems to be no one knows distances. Tom Bishop, is that your final answer?

Charles Lindbergh had to know how much gas he needed. And he got there. He knew how far it was and where it was. When an airliner flies over the Atlantic, gps is constantly on, reporting position to the pilot and air traffic controllers.

Are people all over the world using gps? Are there massive numbers of complaints that it doesn't work? Do airplanes and ships use gps as they travel? Do you have any reason to believe that gps will not show you your location accurately on a systematic consistent basis? How could it show wrong and people not notice?

If gps is accurate everywhere, or even in most places, how can you not know the distance? A person in New York's gps says he is in New York, a person in Paris says they are in Paris, both can confirm gps is correct. How can it know accurately where both people are without being able to know the distance?

If you are going to allege that gps is conspiratorially distorted, how can it identify people everywhere as being where they know they are and change gradually from one place to another as you travel? And if it is monkeyed with somehow, you can find that out. You can buy a usb gps receiver and download multiple different open source gps programs from github. You can look at the algorithms and the live data from satellites. You can find the monkey business.

US Geodetic survey data base of geodetic markers and topo maps. Astral navigation. gps. Globe map. Tom Bishop, show us how they don't match up, and then explain why a world based on those things works and why no one notices the discrepancies?.

Not looking for a random out of context quote from an unknown scientist. Looking for the details of why this system seems to work for everyone and yet it is wrong.

Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: RonJ on May 23, 2021, 06:09:27 PM
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2021, 06:26:36 PM
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     

These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 23, 2021, 06:36:03 PM
The calculated of speed is s = d/t and requires a known distance. Distances are fundamentally in contention in this discussion
If you say that distances are in contention, then you must have some evidence, right?  Just give us all an example.  Saying something without any real world experience isn't satisfactory.  It's non-Zetetic.  My contention, after crossing the earth's oceans countless times, is that the distances ARE NOT in contention.  We know where those shallow reefs are.  Our scheduled arrival times after a voyage of many thousands of miles can be very accurate when King Neptune allows it and doesn't throw bad weather our way.  Without any examples or evidence your arguments just don't hold any water!     

These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: stack on May 23, 2021, 06:56:04 PM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/PsdOTyn.png)

I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2021, 06:57:15 PM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/PsdOTyn.png)

I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?

I don't see any ship logs. You've only shown the existence of ships.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: stack on May 23, 2021, 07:03:07 PM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:

(https://i.imgur.com/PsdOTyn.png)

I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?

I don't see any ship logs. You've only shown the existence of ships.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 23, 2021, 07:14:46 PM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Yours is a similar argument to Fedex and UPS international deliveries are fake because we used to use the Pony Express.  Please, continue this line of reasoning.  It's quite entertaining.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2021, 07:25:44 PM
You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?

I don't think things have changed that much in regards to accuracy and speed, no.

On navigation:

https://books.google.com › books ›
The Globalization of Knowledge in History

"Celestial navigation as practiced by the military was not perfected until the invention of the chronometer at the end of the 18th century."

Lowtech Magazine: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/01/satellite-nav-1.html

"More than two centuries ago, it was possible to very accurately pinpoint your position on earth by means of 'satellites'.

Man has navigated across the globe by means of satellites for thousands of years – however, until the mid twentieth century, these were not GPS-satellites, but stars. In reality, the sun and the stars aren’t satellites of the Earth, but celestial navigation is based on a precopernican world view (the earth was believed to be the centre of the universe). This may sound a little outdated, but this system was perfected to such an extent that in the second half of the eighteenth century it was almost as accurate as the present-day GPS. Moreover, it was much more robust."

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 23, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?

I don't think things have changed that much in regards to accuracy and speed, no.

On navigation:

https://books.google.com › books ›
The Globalization of Knowledge in History

"Celestial navigation as practiced by the military was not perfected until the invention of the chronometer at the end of the 18th century."

Lowtech Magazine: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/01/satellite-nav-1.html

"More than two centuries ago, it was possible to very accurately pinpoint your position on earth by means of 'satellites'.

Man has navigated across the globe by means of satellites for thousands of years – however, until the mid twentieth century, these were not GPS-satellites, but stars. In reality, the sun and the stars aren’t satellites of the Earth, but celestial navigation is based on a precopernican world view (the earth was believed to be the centre of the universe). This may sound a little outdated, but this system was perfected to such an extent that in the second half of the eighteenth century it was almost as accurate as the present-day GPS. Moreover, it was much more robust."

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."

Seeing as though none of those articles provide any ships logs they’re pretty meaningless.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on May 23, 2021, 09:41:02 PM

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."


The difference in passenger ship speeds between the early 20th and 21st Centuries is completely non sequitur, and has no relevance to global distances. 

RMS Titanic and her rivals were the Boeing Dreamliners of their age.  Revenue was attracted by providing the fastest, the most frequent and (ironically) the safest port-to-port passage with the technology available. 

Modern cruise ships, on the other hand, are the RVs of the sea.  Customers want the onboard experience, and don't really care how long it takes between ports.  In fact, the longer the Companies can keep their clientele incarcerated, the more revenue they attract in sales of drink, commodities and gambling. 

One exception is the Queen Mary 2, which was actually built to a traditional liner specification, using modern technology, with the intention of seasonal trans-Atlantic crossings.  Consequently, its cruising and maximum speeds are around 20% better than its rivals, and the Titanic
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: jimster on May 23, 2021, 10:28:42 PM
In 2001, my company was a sponsor of the Whitbread race (then Volvo, now just the Ocean Race). We provided a computer for Quokka Sports to run a game where people could have their own virtual boat to race against the real boats and we provided the internet infrastructure for each port they stopped in. They sailed from Capetown to Melbourne on one leg, yacht races like the southern ocean because the winds are hihest there, so it is basically a race around Antarctica.

Several people in my department went to each port before they got there to set up, operate, when they left, tear down and ship to next port. They sent me pics at the dock and in the boats.

Sailboats have a hull speed, they can only go so fast (I tried to get a sailboat to go faster than hull speed, it dug the nose in and turned, indeed impossible). The computer game showed their location continuously. The sailboat speed, published distance, and time the trip took all matched perfectly. On any FE map I have seen, the distance is thousands of miles longer and the sailboats would have to go 90 mph to make it.

I conclude that RE distance is accurate, FE is impossible. FEs, where is my mistake?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: RonJ on May 24, 2021, 01:49:05 AM
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.
If it's ship's logs and confidence you seek, then YOU can make it so!  There are some ship locator services out there.  For a monthly fee you can obtain a ship's name, current position, course, and speed.  All this data comes from the same instruments that would also be written into the log by the officer on watch.  All you would have to do is record that data in a paper log once an hour and then wam-bam, thankyou ma'am, you would have about the same data as would be in the ship's log, and with that, plenty of confidence.  I've entered data into a ship's log countless times so I can attest to the accuracy of the data and that the same data is also sent up to one of the INMARSAT birds and relayed back down for use on shore.  I have total confidence in the accuracy of all chart distances.  Now with a little work you can too.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on May 24, 2021, 07:52:26 PM
These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

I'm curious, Tom. In the wiki page there is a quote from Rowbotham's Zetetic Cosmogony which in turn cites W J J Spry's Challenger. Rowbotham claims that the Spry book states the distance from the Cape of Good Hope to Melbourne to be 7637 miles. I've looked at the Spry book (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html)) and I can't find any mention of that distance. All I can determine is that Challenger's routing between the two places was far from direct - they seemed to venture as far south as the Antarctic. How has Rowbotham come up with that figure?
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2021, 08:08:49 PM
These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

I'm curious, Tom. In the wiki page there is a quote from Rowbotham's Zetetic Cosmogony which in turn cites W J J Spry's Challenger. Rowbotham claims that the Spry book states the distance from the Cape of Good Hope to Melbourne to be 7637 miles. I've looked at the Spry book (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html)) and I can't find any mention of that distance. All I can determine is that Challenger's routing between the two places was far from direct - they seemed to venture as far south as the Antarctic. How has Rowbotham come up with that figure?

Robotham isn't the author of Zetetic Cosmogony. And your problem is that you are expecting us to believe that you read that entire non-searchable book in that link full of jpegs since I posted the link yesterday. You should have waited at least a week or two to make it more believable.
Title: Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
Post by: SteelyBob on May 24, 2021, 08:21:51 PM
Robotham isn't the author of Zetetic Cosmogony. And your problem is that you are expecting us to believe that you read that entire non-searchable book in that link full of jpegs since I posted the link yesterday. You should have waited at least a week to make it more believable.

My bad - the website I found Zetetic Cosmogony on lists the author as Rowbotham for some reason. (https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony/page/n17/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony/page/n17/mode/2up)). Always happy to admit being wrong when proven!

I think you're assuming hostility where there isn't any. I just rather assumed that, since you're quoting the figure yourself, that you would have verified it first. Evidently not.

As for not being able to search that quickly...no, I haven't read the whole book. I did, however, have a look at the start and finish to see if there was a summary of the journey somewhere - there isn't, as far as I can see. The book is arranged chronologically, so I had a quick scan through the relevant chapter - there doesn't seem to be a total distance. And, whilst you can't search on that first website I quoted, you can on this one: http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20cruise%20of%20Her%20Majesty%27s%20ship%20Challenger%20(1877).pdf (http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20cruise%20of%20Her%20Majesty%27s%20ship%20Challenger%20(1877).pdf)

...and I don't see any references to that figure.

Given that the figure is somewhat central to your argument, could you expend a little energy and figure out where it comes from? A reasonable request, is it not?