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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2017, 11:22:18 AM »

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:


 -- I think you're letting him off the hook to easily!

The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

Nope, it provides an erroneous depiction of perspective. When viewed from the side, a distance away, parallel lines remain parallel. Here's a video I just made to demonstrate this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0e7yca4uk2y836/IMG_0081.MOV?dl=0 In my video, the view from above onto the entire page shows parallel lines, just like the surface of the supposedly flat earth and the sun that supposedly travels over it in the diagram 3D made. You see the lines begin to converge ONLY when I move the camera closer to one end of the lines. The video you posted is a typical example of flerfer confusion: the author is wrongfully using converging lines in a side view, which never occurs.

Thoughts?

This is a good video. If I were to repurpose it I would use it to explain that parallel lines are not always parallel and are highly dependent on the perspective of the observer. Your parallel lines do not remain parallel as you move the camera around in your video. When the camera gets close to one end the lines appear to be somewhat pointed towards each other. If those lines were to continue onwards they would eventually touch. You cannot have to lines angled at each other and continuing forever without touching.

Although the lines seem to be parallel from one view point; perspective causes them to point towards each other from another view point, and touch at a vanishing point with enough distance, much like a railroad perspective scene.

It is also possible to draw lines which are angled slightly away from each other in a non-parallel angle and make those lines parallel by moving your camera around the scene. The concept of whether the lines are parallel or not depends on your perspective. There is not one view point which presents fundamental truth -- they are all true.

Your error is that you drew the scene from one view point and arbitrarily declared that viewpoint to be true, for no real particular reason. If you had rested your face on your table, such as where you rested your camera at one of the ends of the lines, and drew lines on the paper, you could equally declare that viewpoint to be more true than all others. And then when you looked at it from above it would look differently. Which is true and why? Is truth based merely on what is more comfortable for your head?

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2017, 11:40:02 AM »
Your error is that you drew the scene from one view point and arbitrarily declared that viewpoint to be true, for no real particular reason. If you had rested your face on your table, such as where you rested your camera at one of the ends of the lines, and drew lines on the paper, you could equally declare that viewpoint to be more true than all others. And then when you looked at it from above it would look differently. Which is true and why? Is truth based merely on what is more comfortable for your head?
are you implying that changing one's point of view changes the underlying reality? Because that has consequences. Are you saying that me seeing a sunrise means that Russia is experiencing the Armageddon?  :o  ;D

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:

Suppose I'm some distant viewer - on a mountain that's a little lower than the height of the clouds off to the South of the Sun...with  Cloud over to the North-West.   I would see the sun and the under-lit cloud - all from the side view...yes?   Since it's noon for me now, the sun is high in the sky.

I call the little stick figure guy on my cellphone and he says "Hey - that cloud off to your North West is being lit from the underside!

Would not the scene that unfolds look very much like my diagram?   How would *I* see the light rays travelling?

The cloud is not being lit from the underside. It's being lit from the side. The sun is at the horizon for the cloud -- which is the cloud's side.

The sun's light is a band which rises upwards when it sets, much like in the intro scene of Disney's Gargoyles. Just above the line of darkness is an area of orange, where the light of the sun turns orange before completely setting. The picture happens to catch the cloud when it is half-way intersected with the orange, the lower portion being illuminated with orange, and your interpretation is that it is being illuminated from below rather than from the side. With more time more of the cloud would become orange, and eventually become dark from the bottom up as sunset passes.
I'm so glad you said that Tom. Prove it. Let's see these clouds with the tops lit up in Orange. Or darkness-orange-sunlight in bands across the clouds.

There are two major flaws with what you're presenting here. The first is that in each of those images, at least a section of the bottom of the cloud is uniformly lit. That's not how the light would function if it was being lit strictly 'from the side' as you claim. It would then simply be lit from the side, and only a small portion of the bottom would be lit, not the whole length. You're also ignoring the video taken from another thread, where the sun is seen literally appearing behind the clouds from a position above them. This is easy to explain on a round Earth. Not so much on a flat, in fact it should be impossible on a flat Earth. The plane of the sun cannot go below the plane of vision of your eyes, and when the clouds are below you like that, it can't end up below them either by the same token. The plane of the clouds and that of the sun are still parallel after all. Just because the limitation of your eye sees them meet, doesn't stop them from not being able to ever cross.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2017, 01:39:02 PM »
I'm so glad you said that Tom. Prove it. Let's see these clouds with the tops lit up in Orange. Or darkness-orange-sunlight in bands across the clouds.

Here is a video which shows the top of clouds orange and the bottom of the clouds being dark. Watch from 00:24 to 00:40:



Quote
The plane of the sun cannot go below the plane of vision of your eyes, and when the clouds are below you like that, it can't end up below them either by the same token. The plane of the clouds and that of the sun are still parallel after all. Just because the limitation of your eye sees them meet, doesn't stop them from not being able to ever cross.

This is entirely possible. The clouds are above the horizon and the sun is at the horizon - just like how you can put your hand above the horizon and all distant telephone poles. This was already discussed over the last couple of pages.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 01:41:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2017, 01:43:03 PM »
I'm so glad you said that Tom. Prove it. Let's see these clouds with the tops lit up in Orange. Or darkness-orange-sunlight in bands across the clouds.

Here is a video which shows the top of clouds orange and the bottom of the clouds being dark:



Quote
The plane of the sun cannot go below the plane of vision of your eyes, and when the clouds are below you like that, it can't end up below them either by the same token. The plane of the clouds and that of the sun are still parallel after all. Just because the limitation of your eye sees them meet, doesn't stop them from not being able to ever cross.

This is entirely possible. The clouds are above the horizon and the sun is at the horizon - just like how you can put your hand above the horizon and all distant telephone poles. This was already discussed over the last couple of pages.

Nobody is denying that the sun sometimes illuminates the tops of the clouds.  Demonstrating that proves nothing!

The problem you have is that a other times (most obviously when the clouds are relatively high and during the last light of sunset) the clouds are often lit from below.

Proving that sometimes "A" happens is not a valid disproof that at other times "B" happens.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2017, 01:52:58 PM »
Nobody is denying that the sun sometimes illuminates the tops of the clouds.  Demonstrating that proves nothing!

The problem you have is that a other times (most obviously when the clouds are relatively high and during the last light of sunset) the clouds are often lit from below.

Proving that sometimes "A" happens is not a valid disproof that at other times "B" happens.

The sunset ended in the video with the tops of the clouds being illuminated, not the bottom of the clouds. Just watch the whole video. The tops of the clouds start off white and end in orange. From 00:45 to 00:50 there are fleeting flashes of orange at the very tops of the clouds towards the sun.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2017, 01:54:04 PM »
Nobody is denying that the sun sometimes illuminates the tops of the clouds.  Demonstrating that proves nothing!

The problem you have is that a other times (most obviously when the clouds are relatively high and during the last light of sunset) the clouds are often lit from below.

Proving that sometimes "A" happens is not a valid disproof that at other times "B" happens.

The sunset ended in the video with the tops of the clouds being illuminated, not the bottom of the clouds. At 00:45 to 00:50 we can see that the very top of the clouds are illuminated as the sun disappears.

The sun is setting from the point of view of a high altitude airplane - we've agreed that the sun sets at different times at different altitudes.

This video does nothing to prove that from the point of view of someone BELOW the clouds, the undersides were not lit at some point in time.

We have plenty of photographs that CLEARLY show the sun lighting clouds from below...if you can't explain those kinds of photos - then you don't have an argument.

Go to Google...click on the "Images" button - then search on the words "Clouds lit from below" - and you'll see many hundreds of photos of clouds lit from below (and a bunch of other junk that isn't that).

The point is that this is a phenomenon that CLEARLY happens.  It's a frequent thing...it's very beautiful, so a lot of people take pictures of it.

If your theory of the world is valid, then you must be able to explain every single photograph like that.

RET has no problem at all explaining them.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2017, 01:54:29 PM »
I'm so glad you said that Tom. Prove it. Let's see these clouds with the tops lit up in Orange. Or darkness-orange-sunlight in bands across the clouds.

Here is a video which shows the top of clouds orange and the bottom of the clouds being dark. Watch from 00:24 to 00:40:



Quote
The plane of the sun cannot go below the plane of vision of your eyes, and when the clouds are below you like that, it can't end up below them either by the same token. The plane of the clouds and that of the sun are still parallel after all. Just because the limitation of your eye sees them meet, doesn't stop them from not being able to ever cross.

This is entirely possible. The clouds are above the horizon and the sun is at the horizon - just like how you can put your hand above the horizon and all distant telephone poles. This was already discussed over the last couple of pages.
Not a very strong video for either scenario there Tom. The majority of the clouds are never lit up from the perspective of the camera, either on the top, or the side. The bottoms aren't possible to see because of how dense the cloud cover is.

Tom, you understand the sun never actually gets to the horizon right? I already talked about your light poles but you ignored it. You can place your hand in what appears to be 'over' the light pole all you want, but the light will still not be hitting the bottom of your hand as seen in the video where the sun is shining out from beneath the clouds.

The only way your hand goes 'above' the street lights, is to raise your hand above the plane of the horizon of your eyes. The clouds cannot do this when you are above them. Do you not understand your perspective doesn't actually change where the sun is? The sun is still 3,000 miles high in the sky. It cannot cross to being below the plane of your eye because it's not there. Perspective lines meet, they do not cross, and even that is an optical illusion. The sun cannot go beneath the clouds due to perspective. Doubly so when you are above the clouds and the horizon is also therefore above the clouds due to the horizon always rising to eye level.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2017, 01:59:38 PM »
Tom, there is an underlying confusion that needs to be cleared up, I think.
Perspective is not an inherent physical property, it's a consequence of the way we perceive things.
In very very rough terms, our vision works by detecting light that it's emitted or reflected by an object. The light moves through space in straight lines, and hits our eyes at an angle. That way we know where in space an object is.

See the attached picture.
Imagine that you are laying down at ground level on Tom's porch.
Two meters over your head is a candle. You hold a hand midway between the horizon and the limit of your vision.
Let's assume a field of vision of 90° (it's smaller than in reality, but it's to avoid huge and almost empty pictures)
The red line is the ground.
The green lines are the light going from the candle in various positions to your eye (it's how we see things, remember?)
The red dotted line is the height of the hand
The blue dotted lines are the light going from the candle in variuous positions to your hand.
Underneath you can see your subjective point of view.
we move the candle forward.

point a
distance 2 meters, the candle enters your view, way above your hand.
The light of the candle strikes your eye at a 45° angle, and your hand at a 22,5° angle

point b
distance 10 meters. The candle is ca. level with your hand.
The light of the candle strikes your eye at a 12° angle, and your hand at a 6° angle

point c
distance 30 meters. The candle is way below your hand.
The light of the candle strikes your eye at a 4° angle, and your hand at a 2° angle.

All the time, the candle is above your hand. If you want its light to hit your hand at any negative angle you need to bend the light. You have confirmed in other threads that light doesn't bend. Ergo, case closed. 

And if you think that that's bad, consider that the sun at the FE sunset, is actually at a 23°inclination, way above the 12° of the figure b in my diagram.

See why I wanted you to draw a diagram?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2017, 03:42:52 PM »

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:


 -- I think you're letting him off the hook to easily!

The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

Nope, it provides an erroneous depiction of perspective. When viewed from the side, a distance away, parallel lines remain parallel. Here's a video I just made to demonstrate this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0e7yca4uk2y836/IMG_0081.MOV?dl=0 In my video, the view from above onto the entire page shows parallel lines, just like the surface of the supposedly flat earth and the sun that supposedly travels over it in the diagram 3D made. You see the lines begin to converge ONLY when I move the camera closer to one end of the lines. The video you posted is a typical example of flerfer confusion: the author is wrongfully using converging lines in a side view, which never occurs.

Thoughts?

This is a good video. If I were to repurpose it I would use it to explain that parallel lines are not always parallel and are highly dependent on the perspective of the observer. Your parallel lines do not remain parallel as you move the camera around in your video. When the camera gets close to one end the lines appear to be somewhat pointed towards each other. If those lines were to continue onwards they would eventually touch. You cannot have to lines angled at each other and continuing forever without touching.

Although the lines seem to be parallel from one view point; perspective causes them to point towards each other from another view point, and touch at a vanishing point with enough distance, much like a railroad perspective scene.

It is also possible to draw lines which are angled slightly away from each other in a non-parallel angle and make those lines parallel by moving your camera around the scene. The concept of whether the lines are parallel or not depends on your perspective. There is not one view point which presents fundamental truth -- they are all true.

Your error is that you drew the scene from one view point and arbitrarily declared that viewpoint to be true, for no real particular reason. If you had rested your face on your table, such as where you rested your camera at one of the ends of the lines, and drew lines on the paper, you could equally declare that viewpoint to be more true than all others. And then when you looked at it from above it would look differently. Which is true and why? Is truth based merely on what is more comfortable for your head?

Nice try, but no, Tom! First off, it sounds like you didn't read my previous post carefully - please find it in you to re-read it again until you understand what actually said.

Parallel lines always remain parallel (otherwise they wouldn't be called parallel lines, now would they?), they just SEEM to converge from the viewpoints I showed in my video.

The viewpoint WE WERE ACTUALLY DISCUSSING is the one from the side (equivalent to what I was showing with the camera above the notepad with the lines) -- this is where the FE "understanding" of perspective fails miserably, and this is the error in the video you posted (from the side view, the lines should remain parallel). You have not addressed this issue, and flerfers are yet to produce a convincing drawing of their model of how the sun supposedly moves away. Do give this a try, we would all love to see your attempt at this.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2017, 06:34:17 PM »
Quote from: Curious Squirrel
Not a very strong video for either scenario there Tom. The majority of the clouds are never lit up from the perspective of the camera, either on the top, or the side. The bottoms aren't possible to see because of how dense the cloud cover is.

The orange sunlight is hitting the tops of the clouds. How can it also be hitting the bottom of the clouds unless the light were coming in from the side?

Tom, there is an underlying confusion that needs to be cleared up, I think.

[snip]

All the time, the candle is above your hand. If you want its light to hit your hand at any negative angle you need to bend the light. You have confirmed in other threads that light doesn't bend. Ergo, case closed. 

And if you think that that's bad, consider that the sun at the FE sunset, is actually at a 23°inclination, way above the 12° of the figure b in my diagram.

See why I wanted you to draw a diagram?

Please refer to the video on the previous page which addresses this. Diagrams are provided in the video.

Nice try, but no, Tom! First off, it sounds like you didn't read my previous post carefully - please find it in you to re-read it again until you understand what actually said.

Parallel lines always remain parallel (otherwise they wouldn't be called parallel lines, now would they?), they just SEEM to converge from the viewpoints I showed in my video.

The viewpoint WE WERE ACTUALLY DISCUSSING is the one from the side (equivalent to what I was showing with the camera above the notepad with the lines) -- this is where the FE "understanding" of perspective fails miserably, and this is the error in the video you posted (from the side view, the lines should remain parallel). You have not addressed this issue, and flerfers are yet to produce a convincing drawing of their model of how the sun supposedly moves away. Do give this a try, we would all love to see your attempt at this.

Why do we need to declare that viewpoint as true? Why not some other viewpoint? You have not provided a coherent argument for why that viewpoint is truer than all other points around it.

If you were to lay your head down on the table and draw what looked like parallel lines, the view from above would show that the lines are not parallel. Your choice of which viewpoint position is true is entirely arbitrary.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2017, 07:50:10 PM »

Please refer to the video on the previous page which addresses this. Diagrams are provided in the video.
That video is nothing short of asinine. And doesn't address anything. If light travels in straight lines, the choice of the subjective view does not make any difference. If the sun is 3000 miles above the plane, it will always be above it. Unless you are implying that my sunrise is torching Russia.
Changing the point of view doesn't change the angles of incidence of the light. You can verify that experimentally.
Edit for further qualification: You are equating the real positions of the objects with the apparent positions, and implying that the apparent positions have the same effect on the world of the real ones. Which is patently absurd.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 07:55:46 PM by Ga_x2 »

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2017, 08:04:26 PM »
OK, let's try this slightly differently. Here is a (very) rough drawing of how the video with the plane happens on a round Earth. The light from the sun comes in on just about a tangent to the Earth, allowing it to be below 0 degrees in reference to the horizon. Refraction can play some part in this, but it's not needed for this to happen where there is a large section of area mostly flat such as an ocean. The cloud is below the plane, and in fact in between the plane and the sun. Thus creating the appearance of the sun being behind the cloud. Light moves in straight lines, no problems here.



The second image shows the same scene, but on a flat Earth. I've included a yellow line showing where the light of the sun appears to be coming from. Please show us where the sun is that is making this yellow line, and also is 3,000 miles above a point 6,000 miles distant.



Should be no problem at all right? For reference, here's the video I'm referring to once again.


Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2017, 08:17:07 PM »
Tom, you can do the experiment yourself.
Tie a sewing thread to the top of a 6' pole. Keep the spool in your hand, in front of your eyes. Walk backwards until you see the top of the pole under you hand. Measure the angle of the thread. Notice how it's not coming from below, unless it's sagging.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2017, 08:17:48 PM »


Your diagram does not properly depict perspective.


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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2017, 08:20:51 PM »


Your diagram does not properly depict perspective.



Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2017, 08:22:41 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 08:24:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2017, 08:24:17 PM »
Why do we need to declare that viewpoint as true? Why not some other viewpoint? You have not provided a coherent argument for why that viewpoint is truer than all other points around it.

Wow, just wow... I never said one viewpoint is "truer" than another, I was merely pointing out that we were discussing the one where we see the earth, sun, and clouds from the side. Since you're having so much trouble understanding me, I'll try to make it easier for you. Please answer the following questions:

1) do parallel lines exist, at least in theory?
2) in the flat earth model, does the sun move parallel to the supposedly flat surface of the earth?
3) are the clouds generally moving parallel to the supposedly flat surface of the earth?
4) is the sun above or below the clouds?
5) does light move in a straight line?

Let's start with that. Please try to coherently answer these questions.

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2017, 08:29:07 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?
Yes or no Tom.

Does perspective adjust the actual physical location of objects in the real world?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2017, 09:42:03 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?
Yes or no Tom.

Does perspective adjust the actual physical location of objects in the real world?

The problem we have here is that Tom can proudly announce "PERSPECTIVE DID IT!" without ever demonstrating how or why his weird take on perspective actually happens.

Real world perspective (irrespective of flat or round earth models) is a simple consequence of the way eyes, cameras and such like function...hence the pinhole camera analogy.

We can (and DO) routinely use computer graphics to overlay the real world.  It's called "augmented reality".   I've done a lot of work in that area as a part of my job.

Our computer graphics have to line up PERFECTLY with the real world, or the fakery will be obvious.   So it follows that whatever laws of perspective we use must be an excellent match for the real world.

The equation (which I handily derived for you from first principle in the Pinhole camera thread) is super-simple:

   height-on-screen = constant x real-world-height / distance-from-camera-to-object

The constant is calculated from the size of the camera and of the screen.

The proof of this is simple geometry - known since Euclid - the demonstration of it's efficacy is that computer graphics generate the right images - and with augmented reality, any mismatch between the math and reality would be very obvious...and it's not.

But Tom cannot grasp this...I can't see why - the concept is SO simple.

The video he so often presents is bullshit for a couple of very good reasons - so I've started a new thread to debunk THAT.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?