Poll

What Religion are you?

Jewish
1 (1.8%)
Muslim
1 (1.8%)
Hindu
0 (0%)
Buddhist
0 (0%)
Other
2 (3.5%)
Theist
2 (3.5%)
Folk Religions
2 (3.5%)
Deist
7 (12.3%)
Christian
11 (19.3%)
None (Atheism)
31 (54.4%)

Total Members Voted: 48

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Offline spoon

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #220 on: December 10, 2013, 01:25:56 PM »
a chaotic system isn't unpredictable. There is no randomness in chaos theory.

You've got to elaborate here, because I always thought deterministic chaos was unpredictable.

I don't think I've said anything about randomness being in chaos theory.

I define predictable as "without randomness". If something is unpredictable, that means there is randomness involved. It might not be practical to try and make predictions in a chaotic system, but even chaotic systems follow laws.
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Offline man-bear-man

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #221 on: December 10, 2013, 05:54:39 PM »
I don't know if I'm going to vote because there is no Agnostic option.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #222 on: December 10, 2013, 06:03:18 PM »

It's more about there being an amount of uncertainty in the relation between two quantities; the most famous being position and velocity. The most accurately you know the position of a quanta, the more uncertain you will be regarding its position and vice versa. But it is possible to know an approximate value of these two quantities.

There's a big difference between velocity and momentum in quantum mechanics.

The Heinsberg uncertainty principle is similar to what you've describe however it's the measurement of momentum and position that's uncertain. The more you know the likely position of a particle the less you know the likelihood of it's momentum.

Quantum mechanics deals with probability, not certainty, you can't 'predict' it.

The set, if completely counted would be extremely large, no doubt, but countable nonetheless. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I'm trying to explain that there are an infinite number of 'sets' that could apply to a quantum system, it's unpredictable. Schrodingers cat is a prime example, until you 'measure' the system you can't predict weather the cat is alive or dead. It's unpredictable.

Turbulance and a chaotic system is another example of a system that's unpredictable within the laws of physics.

You can predict the probability of certain events occurring and given a large enough system in time or space, you can assert that an event is statistically certain to take place.  This is the type of prediction I maintain could be made about the spontaneous creation of the universe.  As Roundy passive aggressively pointed out, there would be no one around to make the prediction, but as a metaphysical possibility I think it stands that predicting a probable outcome, and given a system that makes the occurrence a statistical likelihood, renders it non-accidental.  This might degenerate in to a semantic discussion of accidental, which is fine, I just wanted to clarify my original point.
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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #223 on: December 11, 2013, 07:48:38 AM »
I define predictable as "without randomness". If something is unpredictable, that means there is randomness involved. It might not be practical to try and make predictions in a chaotic system, but even chaotic systems follow laws.

Well I think you're one of the few who defines it that way (in a mathematical sense).

You can predict the probability of certain events occurring and given a large enough system in time or space, you can assert that an event is statistically certain to take place.  This is the type of prediction I maintain could be made about the spontaneous creation of the universe.  As Roundy passive aggressively pointed out, there would be no one around to make the prediction, but as a metaphysical possibility I think it stands that predicting a probable outcome, and given a system that makes the occurrence a statistical likelihood, renders it non-accidental.  This might degenerate in to a semantic discussion of accidental, which is fine, I just wanted to clarify my original point.

My problem was with the fact that you need a set of laws to predict a possible set of outcomes.

You can still have a set of laws but you will never be able to predict the outcome, quantum mechanics is a prime example. I can't argue that you could give a probable outcome but that doesn't mean it's not an accident. A nuclear power station has a probability of blowing up but I would say it's an accident if it did.

Also what happens if our type of universe that came into being had an equal but remote possibility of being created as any other universes or non-existence? Is it an accident then?

What determines that probability? I would argue that in order to know that probability you would need to be independent of the universe itself, because anything you measure or interact with within the universe will influence the outcome and the probability you're trying to measure (which is shown to be the case in quantum mechanics).

I can't see how you can say the universe was created by accident or vice versa.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #224 on: December 17, 2013, 10:29:33 PM »
3 orthographic errors. I don't have to prove anything more than I have. I have given you 6 sources now, & explained thoroughly. Since all Jews consider themselves an ethnic group, anyone who disagrees is duty-bound to prove us wrong. Its that simple.
Well maybe those 6 people hapen to be morons!!!
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans black?
Uhh, what people are you meeting that don't like the term "black"?
EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans and African Americans black?
Well African Americans have had to deal with rascism for years
Most people who uses the term "black" doesn't use it with any intention to be racist. If they truly are racists, they would more likely use the N word.
Well it is rascist and us African Americans take vary grete ofence to it
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon. Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?
YOU RASCIST BASTERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the flip is wrong with you never have I seen such horible flipppin rascism screw you my ancesters are intelectuels ANCIENT FLIPPIN EGYPT so flip the flip off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon.

Effectively making his ancestors smarter than yours. They weren't dumb enough to waste time worshipping an invisible man in the sky.

Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?

Hah, total racist meltdown.

EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

Oh, EJ isn't people, silly.
Thank you for defending me during by absense cvs :) Also ikr he had a totel rascist meltdown ;D
Meltdown yes. Racist, no. Its not racist when its true. Re: the atheist dig, you can bet that his primitive ancestors did believe in gods. Atheism is a new concept, & hasn't taken the Earth by storm. As to the intelligence of atheism, the only response is that someone who believes that the universe just came about by accident is not the sharpest knife in the rack.
So you admit its true that my ancesters are savages?!! You make yourself come off as nothing more than an idiot and a rascist. And im not athiest but that us vary ofencive to athiests!!!
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #225 on: December 17, 2013, 11:24:08 PM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #226 on: December 17, 2013, 11:39:49 PM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.

I thought the jury was still out on that one?

I mean we know they didn't exhibit what might be thought of as typical negroid features but thats only one subset of people regarded as black. There's still a certain amount of evidence that they might have been black as oppose to Arabic in looks.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #227 on: December 17, 2013, 11:49:34 PM »
I had Coptic students. Direct descendents of the Egyptians, & nothing to do w/ Arabs, they denied any connection with either group, Arab or Black, now or in the past.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:53:05 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #228 on: December 18, 2013, 02:23:55 PM »
I had Coptic students. Direct descendents of the Egyptians, & nothing to do w/ Arabs, they denied any connection with either group, Arab or Black, now or in the past.

I wasn't aware they were that old to have personal knowledge.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #229 on: December 18, 2013, 02:34:03 PM »
*GRIN* Wise-ass! Seriously, though, Copts have both rich oral & written traditions that date back, in the written case, to the Christianising of Egypt under St. Mark, & even further in the case of the oral one, no one is sure how far. 

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #230 on: December 18, 2013, 03:15:11 PM »
*GRIN* Wise-ass! Seriously, though, Copts have both rich oral & written traditions that date back, in the written case, to the Christianising of Egypt under St. Mark, & even further in the case of the oral one, no one is sure how far.


I appreciate that but that's still a long time after the original Old kingdom and it's successors.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #231 on: December 18, 2013, 03:25:27 PM »
Well, they claim to be the descendents of the people of the Old Kingdom. I can't prove that, of course. If they are though, I can assure you, they aren't black. My own eyes tell me that, aside from what they themselves say. I guess that as far as proof goes, as w/ so much that is human, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% proof.

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #232 on: December 18, 2013, 03:31:29 PM »
Well, they claim to be the descendents of the people of the Old Kingdom. I can't prove that, of course. If they are though, I can assure you, they aren't black. My own eyes tell me that, aside from what they themselves say. I guess that as far as proof goes, as w/ so much that is human, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% proof.

I know they aren't black.

I also know that pre-old kingdom egyptians have been verified to be of nubian descent.

I don't however know the ethnicity of those in the region between then and the christian era or when it changed.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #233 on: December 18, 2013, 11:33:51 PM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #234 on: December 18, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2013, 12:01:38 AM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Offline Socker

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #236 on: December 19, 2013, 12:03:38 AM »
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #237 on: December 19, 2013, 12:05:29 AM »
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #238 on: December 19, 2013, 12:06:18 AM »
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.
Well you can thank yakoov for making it that way ::)
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.
Prove that im wrong
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #239 on: December 19, 2013, 12:07:28 AM »
Ancient Egyptians lived in America? What a thought!