Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2014, 04:56:14 PM »
JPEG compression ringing isn't in question here. What is questionable are the rectangular "auroras" around the earths, which are typically a sign of image editing.

Just once I'd love to see you actually provide a warrant for any of the claims you make.  Once.

Can you provide ANY SOURCE AT ALL that can confirm this statement?  Because it looks to me like you took a reduced version of a jpg of a scan of a photo taken in 1969 and found a bunch of artifacts.

Oh hey look at all the people posting fake photos of the Moon on Google images.  I can't believe that so many people would forge their own photos of the Moon in the sky.  It's unbelievable.  Don't worry about getting bogged down in what I did to these photos or if it's a legitimate way to spot a fake photo.  Just take my word for it.


Your photos show artifacting near the moon's edges, which are to be expected in jpeg compression.  Tom Bishop's example clearly shows a complete rectangle containing the entire image of the earth, where the artifacting is notably different from that in the surrounding areas.  The artifacts are not located only near the edges of the earth-disc, they're expanded to a rectangle around it, as if someone 'clipped' that image and pasted it onto the other one.  This does occur in image editing.

How do you know that those things are true?  How do you know that the artifacts are different?  How do you know that this occurs in manipulated images and not in genuine photos?  Do you yourself have any digital imaging expertise that you can bring to bear on the subject?  Can you explain the process from start to finish?  What causes the difference in the artifacts?  Is there some other expert that could explain the difference?

The images I provided aren't reduced and compressed copies of scans of a photo snapped in 1969.  There are bound to be differences. 
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Offline Antonio

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2014, 05:24:09 PM »
That's a fairly unreasonable request. I asked him to produce the primary source for the computer enhanced photos. This should be vetted first. It is unreasonable to expect Tom to have an expertise in forensic photo analysis.
Tom Bishop claimed
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photographs from that source have been demonstrated to be fraudulent
I'm asking for the demonstration process. The forensic photo analysis expertise of Tom Bishop doesn't matter here, the original claimer should have some, and should show how he applies it to the image processing. Unfortunately, auris.com does not meet these criteria.

Actually, you'll want to start with an uncompressed scan of the original negative.  The JPEG compression process can introduce artifacts that can be misinterpreted as retouching.
Indeed, that's part of the demonstration process. As far as I know, there is no information about the source pictures used.

Here's a demonstration of one the the scenes in the video I made several ago on the old forum:

http://www.screencast.com/users/tbishop/folders/Jing/media/d5784ce2-2348-40a0-8f9b-0ddf37763b6e

Fine, thank you for the link.
Please try the same demonstration with the following image:

http://www.photos-public-domain.com/2011/11/19/bright-sun/

from



to



Hexagonal sun...

You can obtain a lot of weird images when applying this kind of massive effects. As an addition, you didn't use the original uncompressed TIFF images.
Please start with them, before claiming some anomalies.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:27:14 PM by Antonio »

Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2014, 05:56:17 PM »
To reproduce, do the following in photoshop:

add sharpness
add light to shadows
the earths imaged during A11 appear tampered with.

Also, why do you get to sharpen the image?  I dunno much about digital imaging, but I gather that sharpening parts of an image increases contrast between different pixels, and it exaggerates artifacts in images.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/unsharp-mask.htm
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Note how it does not transform the edges of the letter into an ideal "step," but instead exaggerates the light and dark edges of the transition. An unsharp mask improves sharpness by increasing acutance, although resolution remains the same...

Unsharp masks are wonderful at sharpening images, however too much sharpening can also introduce "halo artifacts." These are visible as light/dark outlines or halos near edges. Halos artifacts become a problem when the light and dark over and undershoots become so large that they are clearly visible at the intended viewing distance...

Another complication of using an unsharp mask is that it can introduce subtle color shifts. Normal unsharp masks increase the over and undershoot of the RGB pixel values similarly, as opposed to only increasing the over and undershoots of luminance. In situations where very fine color texture exists, this can selectively increase some colors while decreasing others.

http://www.scantips.com/simple6.html
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Sharpening will greatly emphasize dust spots and will aggravate JPG artifacts.

To be honest, I can't even replicate what Jack White shows on his page.  Your final images looks much different than his.  It would be nice to know exactly what he did to the images so that we could subject obviously genuine photos to his method and test for false positives.  I imagine that that's exactly why he didn't bother to provide those details.

This is the closest I've come:




It looks just like the stair-step pattern/ringing artifacts I demonstrated previously.  I get the same thing if I sharpen the image with Smart Sharpen.



Until someone can reproduce the image Jack White did, I'm not sure why I should even believe that he didn't just directly edit the image himself to make it look as it does.
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2014, 01:02:23 AM »
Here is some proof. I will document this better later on.




Use the google lat long co ordinates to locate this house. It is the only octagonal house on this shore. Location is Cecil County, Maryland.


I was next to the pier sitting on rocks,at Perry Point VA hospital, the camera was 2' above the water. I was at one end of the yellow line, the octagon house was at the other end.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 02:11:07 AM by Hoppy »
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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2014, 01:50:31 AM »
Here is some proof. I will document this better later on.



Excellent, Hoppy.  I look forward to seeing your data.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2014, 02:05:00 AM »
Here is some proof. I will document this better later on.


This photograph has obviously been altered.
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Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2014, 02:24:03 AM »
This photograph has obviously been altered.

I concur.

It looks like some text has been added.

Offline BillyBob

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2014, 08:43:07 AM »
lol, Hoppy, how do they keep the breakers off of their porch? 

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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2014, 06:48:26 PM »
lol, Hoppy, how do they keep the breakers off of their porch?
I don't know, I don't live there or even know those people.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2014, 06:58:57 PM »
lol, Hoppy, how do they keep the breakers off of their porch?
I don't know, I don't live there or even know those people.
Then how do you know how close to the shore the house really is?  For all you know, that house could be 10-12 feet above the shoreline.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2014, 03:41:23 PM »
Since Hoppy decided to repost this picture from .org depicting what he calls a 12.9 ft drop, I'm going to repost my response here:

Here we go: Using the calculator on this page we can determine how far the horizon is for a given elevation. So for 2 ft the distance to the horizon is 1.73 miles.

Which means you subtract the distance 1.73 miles from your 4.4 miles to get 2.67 miles.

Using rowbothams method for deriving the drop:

Quote
To find the curvature in any number of miles not given in the table, simply square the number, multiply that by 8, and divide by 12. The quotient is the curvation required.

2.67^2 * 8 / 12

This makes the new drop 4.75 feet.

And without a good image to indicate what that beach really looks like it is difficult to determine what is going on but I would guess that a typical beach like the one we see in the picture is at least over 5 ft.

Later on in the thread Silhouette29 posted a great picture to help hoppy understand why you don't simply subtract the height of 2 ft from Rowbotham's 12.9 ft to get the drop:

Like I said earlier with an example using 6 feet for the observation height.  At 4 miles, one doesn't simply subtract that height from the drop (10-6), as that would indicate a 4 foot drop over the distance of 1 mile.  It needs to be recalculated using the distance advantage of added height from the starting point.

Using Rowbotham's diagram:


The drop is 4.75 feet and the image he posted sucks.

Also, note that in the picture he took there are some stark differences in topography when compared with the octagon house on Google Earth.

On Google Earth there is clearly a walkway and a lot of shrubbery in the way. This makes the picture highly suspect.

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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2014, 03:18:04 AM »
Here is some proof. I will document this better later on.





Excellent, Hoppy.  I look forward to seeing your data.
I went over to the house and took a picture from the right side of it, my picture from across the bay comes in from the left. I am  a flat earth believer but the pic from across the water sure looks like it has at 10' wall of water in front of it. Just as RE theory would predict.
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2014, 02:25:42 PM »
How about a Fe'er chiming in, what is with the 10' wall of water?..... Bishop? .....Thork?.... Anyone?
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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2014, 04:54:27 PM »
How about a Fe'er chiming in, what is with the 10' wall of water?..... Bishop? .....Thork?.... Anyone?

A couple of things at play - I don't see a ten foot wall of water, I see the lower section of the house sort of "compressed" - this is partially an optical trick which occurs close to the horizon (sunsets do it too, the sun sort of collapses into itself when its image is on the horizon, and partially due to the way light travels on a Flat Earth.  See the Electromagnetic Accelerator thread.  The lower areas of the house are hidden behind water because that light "dips" before bending upward again.

Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2014, 05:27:31 PM »
How about a Fe'er chiming in, what is with the 10' wall of water?..... Bishop? .....Thork?.... Anyone?

A couple of things at play - I don't see a ten foot wall of water, I see the lower section of the house sort of "compressed" - this is partially an optical trick which occurs close to the horizon (sunsets do it too, the sun sort of collapses into itself when its image is on the horizon, and partially due to the way light travels on a Flat Earth.  See the Electromagnetic Accelerator thread.  The lower areas of the house are hidden behind water because that light "dips" before bending upward again.

Oh boy, an actual experiment grinds against your world view and instead of taking this data and reconsidering your views, you treat your views as infallible and come up with an excuse.

Let's be clear, there is no such thing as bendy light. The closest real world example of such a thing is refraction, which, while nearly always present over water, it does not work in light of this picture.

First off, I'd like to mention that my job is refraction. I create atmospheric profiles for various locations around the planet and determine how those profiles will effect the propagation of radar signals and light. Over water there is ALWAYS an effective trapping layer that causes propagation for as much as 256 miles but the problem with your analysis is that this trapping layer in my experience doing literally 1000's of profiles is never less than 25 ft and 9 times out of 10 it is 30 ft. It is never 10 ft which is exactly what it would have to be for your suggestion to even have potential. Furthermore, if what we are seeing is compression then there would be a couple of things wrong with that. The index of refraction between a medium of air above the trapping layer and a medium of air in it would differ by small amounts causing changes that could not be as dramatic as what you are seeing. Secondly, compression suggests that the refraction would cause the refracted light to change direction at both the top and the bottom of the trapping layer but that is not how this works because the refracted light would be unaffected within the trapping layer medium. Refracted light is the effect that causes light to change direction from one medium to the next but not within the medium itself.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 05:39:57 PM by rottingroom »

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Offline jroa

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2014, 05:28:53 PM »
rottingroom sounds like he is drunk again.  Don't worry people, he can't actually hurt anyone. 

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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2014, 05:52:18 PM »
How about a Fe'er chiming in, what is with the 10' wall of water?..... Bishop? .....Thork?.... Anyone?

A couple of things at play - I don't see a ten foot wall of water, I see the lower section of the house sort of "compressed" - this is partially an optical trick which occurs close to the horizon (sunsets do it too, the sun sort of collapses into itself when its image is on the horizon, and partially due to the way light travels on a Flat Earth.  See the Electromagnetic Accelerator thread.  The lower areas of the house are hidden behind water because that light "dips" before bending upward again.
How did Rowbotham's experiments work so well? He did similar ones where he does not mention this effect. The picture I posted sure looks like a wall of water.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2014, 07:50:07 PM »
rottingroom sounds like he is drunk again.  Don't worry people, he can't actually hurt anyone.
Please refrain from ad hominem attacks in the upper forums.  It's especially poor form for a mod.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2014, 08:35:00 PM »
rottingroom sounds like he is drunk again.  Don't worry people, he can't actually hurt anyone.
Please refrain from ad hominem attacks in the upper forums.  It's especially poor form for a mod.
I have to agree. Please tone it down.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

P.S.  All of us illiterate folks understood this the first time.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Show me proof of a flat earth.
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2014, 08:50:31 PM »
How about a Fe'er chiming in, what is with the 10' wall of water?..... Bishop? .....Thork?.... Anyone?

A couple of things at play - I don't see a ten foot wall of water, I see the lower section of the house sort of "compressed" - this is partially an optical trick which occurs close to the horizon (sunsets do it too, the sun sort of collapses into itself when its image is on the horizon, and partially due to the way light travels on a Flat Earth.  See the Electromagnetic Accelerator thread.  The lower areas of the house are hidden behind water because that light "dips" before bending upward again.
How did Rowbotham's experiments work so well? He did similar ones where he does not mention this effect. The picture I posted sure looks like a wall of water.

I want to say that he did mention the compression effect - I'm re-reading ENaG this week, in fact, because it's been a while and it's nice to get my head out of the theoretical and back to the empirical now and again.  I'll let you know if I find anything relevant to your experiment.