Offline Novarus

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Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« on: April 03, 2017, 06:45:00 AM »
One of the primary concepts behind the Flat Earth theory is Occam's Razor - that the simplest explanation is to be preferred over the more complex.

Now, it seems that every explanation of Flat Earth theory seems to revolve around a global conspiracy of deception, disbelief amd disinformation  (to complete the Ciceronian triplet.)
Last time I checked, the world's nations had a really hard time talking to each other about the simplest things, let alone the extremely complex orchestration that would go into creating a centuries-long, world-spanning  conspiracies to keep the public misinformed.

That doesn't seem particularly simple.

What I would like to know is the simple explanations that don't rely on the fact that millions of people are lying to you.
Start swinging that razor, guys, and give us some simplicity that doesn't rely on the assumption that everyone is against you.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 04:02:11 PM »
One of the primary concepts behind the Flat Earth theory is Occam's Razor
Yes.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Occam%27s_Razor
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Novarus

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 07:13:11 PM »
One of the primary concepts behind the Flat Earth theory is Occam's Razor
Yes.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Occam%27s_Razor

Yes.

...

Thank you? I think you're supporting something but I can't quite tell what it is.

Offline Rekt

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2017, 12:39:04 PM »
The general attitude that I have seen is.... strange. I have had a discussion with someone who legitimately believes that the Cold War was a fake. A bit far-fetched, for me.

Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2017, 02:57:20 PM »
One of the primary concepts behind the Flat Earth theory is Occam's Razor
Yes.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Occam%27s_Razor


Very in depth answer... hahaha.
"Occam's Razor asks us which explanation makes the least number of assumptions."
Literally everything you say about a flat earth is an assumption because there is no actual evidence...

Don't expect much from these people, they do after all think the earth is flat.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2017, 08:06:07 PM »
Very in depth answer... hahaha.
"Occam's Razor asks us which explanation makes the least number of assumptions."
Literally everything you say about a flat earth is an assumption because there is no actual evidence...

Don't expect much from these people, they do after all think the earth is flat.

It's empirical that the earth is flat. It takes spacious ancient Greek reasoning and appeals to authority to justify a round one.

Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2017, 10:15:04 PM »
Very in depth answer... hahaha.
"Occam's Razor asks us which explanation makes the least number of assumptions."
Literally everything you say about a flat earth is an assumption because there is no actual evidence...

Don't expect much from these people, they do after all think the earth is flat.

It's empirical that the earth is flat. It takes spacious ancient Greek reasoning and appeals to authority to justify a round one.
Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth then that round earth doesn't explain. Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth that is as accurate and verifiable as the round earth explanation would be.
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2017, 02:58:28 AM »
Very in depth answer... hahaha.
"Occam's Razor asks us which explanation makes the least number of assumptions."
Literally everything you say about a flat earth is an assumption because there is no actual evidence...

Don't expect much from these people, they do after all think the earth is flat.

It's empirical that the earth is flat. It takes spacious ancient Greek reasoning and appeals to authority to justify a round one.
Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth then that round earth doesn't explain. Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth that is as accurate and verifiable as the round earth explanation would be.

We don't have to, because it is the clear conclusion based on the observational evidence.  It's up to you guys to prove us wrong.  Also, I'm sorry, but just the fact that something can explain something doesn't mean it does explain it.  Besides being an illogical argument, it's just lazy.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2017, 05:37:36 AM »
Very in depth answer... hahaha.
"Occam's Razor asks us which explanation makes the least number of assumptions."
Literally everything you say about a flat earth is an assumption because there is no actual evidence...

Don't expect much from these people, they do after all think the earth is flat.

It's empirical that the earth is flat. It takes spacious ancient Greek reasoning and appeals to authority to justify a round one.
Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth then that round earth doesn't explain. Show me empirical evidence of a flat earth that is as accurate and verifiable as the round earth explanation would be.

We don't have to, because it is the clear conclusion based on the observational evidence.  It's up to you guys to prove us wrong.  Also, I'm sorry, but just the fact that something can explain something doesn't mean it does explain it.  Besides being an illogical argument, it's just lazy.

But it should remain that the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct, as Occam's razor would suggest. Conspiracy aside, very few explanations I see on here fit with that.

On one hand, the horizon appears flat, the simplest theory would stand to be that its flat. But as you investigate more it becomes less than simple.
Take distant objects and their relation to the horizon. The Sun and Moon in FE rotate above the disc, yet rather than fading into the distance as one would expect (after similar observations with fog and the like), it image is assumed to be dramatically distorted to the point of showing the face from a rather sharp angle, as well as a significant change in apparent size. With ships, they cross over mast first, explained by a distortion that behaves very differently despite being the same medium. Not only do those theories seem to contradict each other, but they make a lot of complex assumptions.
The RE explanation simply states that the earth is round, so ships find themselves obscured. The Earth simply orbits the Sun, and the Moon orbits Earth.
Gravity is also rather simple in RE theory. Mass is attracted to mass. More mass, more attraction. FE suggests a constant acceleration by an entirely unobserved propelling force. Both seem simple in their own worlds, but FE already has 2 complex answers, whereas RE has 2 simple answers supported by a third simple answer.

As for the conspiracy, well, which seems simpler: all the leaders and scientists workin together to hide the truth of a flat world for some unspecified reason that brings forth such unity between mortal enemies, or that every presented explanation has made the least amount of assumptions, and supported or been supported by previous​ simple explanations for other phenomena.

It may seem like RE is complicated, but it is simply a mountain of the simplest answers, all supporting each other. FE, while seemingly simple at first, becomes increasingly convoluted as complex answers struggle to explain a phenomenon, with simple answers being supported only by complex answers.
Occasional poster, frequent observer.
Round Earth.

RE is a complex theory of simple answers.
FE is a simple theory of complex answers.


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Offline Roundy

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2017, 07:17:02 AM »
But it should remain that the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct, as Occam's razor would suggest. Conspiracy aside, very few explanations I see on here fit with that.

I disagree with both statements.  I also think it's lazy to assume the simplest explanation to be correct, Occam's Razor be damned.  If it was that simple, we'd have it all figured out by now.

As for the second part, I refute it thus.  As regards the appearance of the shape of the Earth and the appearance of the shape of the Earth only, what we see is a Flat Earth.  What's the simplest explanation for this?  Eh?  Remember, we are discussing the appearance of the shape of the Earth only.  Do you see?

So I'm sure you recognize why the rest of your post is rather meaningless in the final analysis, and why I don't really feel compelled to respond to any of it.

Although I will say for the record and as I have said before that I am skeptical about the existence of the Conspiracy, myself, for pretty much the reasons REers cite against it.  I don't believe it has any relevance to the shape of the Earth itself.  To me the Conspiracy is fun to speculate about but really a nonissue.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2017, 01:53:15 PM »


For someone with an impressive list of mental skills, you sure know how to contradict yourself in an astonishingly short space of time.

Line one; “I also think it's lazy to assume the simplest explanation to be correct,”.

Line 4: “what we see is a Flat Earth.  What's the simplest explanation for this?  Eh? “from which you feel vindicated in not responding to a much more consistently and better argued list of points, almost as if you didn’t know what else to say.

And how you conclude that the conspiracy is a non-issue with no relevance, when without one, the whole flat earth nonsense crumbles, as we have satellites, space travel and bases in Antarctica, is beyond me.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Conspiracy theories and Occam's Razor
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2017, 05:29:06 PM »


For someone with an impressive list of mental skills, you sure know how to contradict yourself in an astonishingly short space of time.

Line one; “I also think it's lazy to assume the simplest explanation to be correct,”.

Line 4: “what we see is a Flat Earth.  What's the simplest explanation for this?  Eh? “from which you feel vindicated in not responding to a much more consistently and better argued list of points, almost as if you didn’t know what else to say.

Yes, I can see how you might think I was contradicting myself, but obviously I don't think it's actually that simple.  I was merely playing the game to show that even if he is correct in his faith in Occam's Razor he is incorrect in his interpretation of that (mostly worthless) principle anyway, and must conclude that the Earth is flat.*

Quote
And how you conclude that the conspiracy is a non-issue with no relevance, when without one, the whole flat earth nonsense crumbles, as we have satellites, space travel and bases in Antarctica, is beyond me.

I have explained my position in the past.  None of these things is impossible with a flat Earth.

*You can compare Kant's A Critique Of Pure Reason for a similar tactic.  In it he makes what appear to be cogent arguments for two contradicting metaphysical positions side-by-side.  In neither case is he actually trying to prove the position, he is merely trying to demonstrate the futility of using reason to prove a metaphysical position.  This type of thing is actually very common in philosophical discourse.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)