*

Offline Boots

  • *
  • Posts: 795
  • ---- Cogito, ergo sum. ---- -Descartes
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2016, 07:28:48 PM »
LWDS
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16073
  • (◕˽ ◕ ✿)
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2016, 08:56:39 PM »
I seriously do question your ability to understand logic
What an excellent way to start an argument. You must be an expert debater.

Did you know that I am invulnerable to being run over by a bus? At least temporarily.
Yes, I could believe that. It's not unlikely that you live in a high-rise flat, or in an area that's not serviced by buses; in either case the probability of you being harmed by a bus while at home can be considered to be 0 for all practical purposes.

As proof I offer my medical records. Perfect health. No broken bones, no internal bleeding. Nothing.
No need, I believe you; although medical records would be completely irrelevant here. You probably also don't have your medical records, but that's more to point out your lack of knowledge than your logical failures.

To say that you've provided evidence of "anyone in the entire history of humankind that was/is invulnerable to every disease, at least temporarily", by offering that I should find someone in good health and ask them to show me their medical records is  clearly not a valid claim.

Clearly!
Ah, yes. This is not the case because it's clearly not the case. Such an impressive position.

I also never suggested that you should ask anyone to show you their medical records. That would be silly.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 08:59:30 PM by SexWarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

Rama Set

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2016, 09:39:40 PM »
The diseases we have so far discussed have a subset of people whose immune system was strong enough to fight off the disease. This is what my comment was based on. The burden has shifted to you guys to now show that there are diseases that can defeat a strong and healthy immune system.

How are you defining a "strong and healthy immune system".  If you can say something other than "an immune system capable of fighting off any disease" we can actually talk about this point.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #103 on: December 08, 2016, 09:42:17 PM »
The diseases we have so far discussed have a subset of people whose immune system was strong enough to fight off the disease. This is what my comment was based on. The burden has shifted to you guys to now show that there are diseases that can defeat a strong and healthy immune system.

How are you defining a "strong and healthy immune system".  If you can say something other than "an immune system capable of fighting off any disease" we can actually talk about this point.

If there are diseases that can overwhelm any immune system, then you should be able to point me to a disease with a 100% mortality rate.

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #104 on: December 08, 2016, 09:46:16 PM »
The diseases we have so far discussed have a subset of people whose immune system was strong enough to fight off the disease. This is what my comment was based on. The burden has shifted to you guys to now show that there are diseases that can defeat a strong and healthy immune system.

How are you defining a "strong and healthy immune system".  If you can say something other than "an immune system capable of fighting off any disease" we can actually talk about this point.

If there are diseases that can overwhelm any immune system, then you should be able to point me to a disease with a 100% mortality rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_disease_case_fatality_rates

100% - Prion diseases, or transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSE): Includes Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and all its variants, fatal familial insomnia, kuru, and Gerstmann–Sträussler–Scheinker syndrome.

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1537
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2016, 09:46:52 PM »
The diseases we have so far discussed have a subset of people whose immune system was strong enough to fight off the disease. This is what my comment was based on. The burden has shifted to you guys to now show that there are diseases that can defeat a strong and healthy immune system.

An impossible request as you know, however the western aid workers who went to Africa (in Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia) to help out during the ebola crisis were screened and deemed to be healthy, inspite of this they were instructed to go through strict hygene protocols and decontamination procedures because the medical experts were keenly aware that their immune systems would not be
able to fight off a virulent virus that it had not encountered before, born out when those procedures failed in a few cases. the human race is almost infinitely diverse (at the genetic level) however and some with particular versions of  a gene called human leukocyte antigen-B, specifically  B*07 and B*14, were more likely to survive Ebola, while people with other versions, called B*67 and B*15, were more likely to die. Further to that,  some people may be resistant to Ebola infection entirely, if they have a mutation in a gene called NPC1 (about 1 in 400 in Europeans). Now you will probably say this proves your point but it doesn't, those  B*67 and B*15 antigens probably are geared to another type of infection as there are often trade offs such as those who have sickle cell trait have resistance to the parasite that produces malaria. The point being diversity in population is what defeats epidemics not some mythical perfect immune system that has never existed.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 09:50:38 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Rama Set

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #106 on: December 08, 2016, 09:50:21 PM »

If there are diseases that can overwhelm any immune system, then you should be able to point me to a disease with a 100% mortality rate.

Why does it matter if there is a disease with a 100% mortality rate anyway?  What if you have someone who survives prostate cancer but dies of the flu?  Was their immune system compromised?  Or was it very strong against one type of disease but not as good against another?  There is variation in every characteristic of human beings and I do not know why the immune system should be any different.  Ultimately, until you can tell me what you mean by a healthy immune system, I am not even sure I know what you are talking about.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7653
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2016, 01:23:08 PM »
Tom's logic is, of course, actually correct.

His argument is that if your immune system is strong enough (strong being far more complex than just energy or white blood cell count) then it can defend against any disease.

HOWEVER

Human immune systems are not and can not be strong enough.  The Human immune system works on various principals of biology, protein chains, and a lot of stuff I don't understand.  It is finite in it's ability to produce antibodies and it can only produce antibodies for things it recognizes as a foreign containment. 
Here's a good article on how pathogens avoid being destroyed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK27176/

Now, if you have an immune system that's somehow evolved to not be susceptible to any of these tricks, you're immune to disease.  But human immune systems are not like that.  A few are immune to AIDs due to a missing protein that HIV needs to attach and infect a t-cell.
http://www.hivplusmag.com/research-breakthroughs/2016/3/23/anyone-immune-hiv
This isn't a strong immune system, just a different one. 


Also, Rabies apparently has about a 100% mortality rate.  Plague too.

Also, isn't Ebola at 85-90%?  Where's the 50% figure?


Anyway, diseases usually kill when whatever they do is done faster than the body can remove them.  And so far, the addition of medical science has not shown any increase in mortality rates.  Quite the opposite, really.  Before modern medicine, death by disease was far more likely.  The human immune system can only do so much.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #108 on: December 13, 2016, 02:37:30 PM »
Tom's logic is, of course, actually correct.

His argument is that if your immune system is strong enough (strong being far more complex than just energy or white blood cell count) then it can defend against any disease.

This is a metaphysical truth but it has no basis in reality.  Since we are talking about reality his metaphysical argument is irrelevant other than to possibly uncover a more effective philosophy in developing treatment.


Quote
Also, isn't Ebola at 85-90%?  Where's the 50% figure?

Ebola Zaire had a mortality rate that high, but that likely had to do with the treatment conditions during the outbreak as much as the strength of the virus.  Flu would also be extremely deadly in countries with no effective way to combat it like the Spanish Influenza of 1919 that killed more people than WW1 had in the previous 4 years.  As much as people love to rail against western medicine, they forget all of the strides it made.  I definitely think a holisitic philosophy augmented by strong evidence-based research is the future of medicine.  Doctors should be more focused on preparing people to fight off infection and disease rather than being there when something goes wrong.  Lets educate people about the dangers of shit diets, lack of exercise, lack of community, managing stress poorly, etc... so that every person is in a position to function somewhere approaching their optimal level.

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2016, 02:47:46 PM »
Quote
His argument is that if your immune system is strong enough (strong being far more complex than just energy or white blood cell count) then it can defend against any disease.

This is like saying if we had a perfect world, then there would be no disease. It is a tautology without any substance.

If you had a perfect immune system that could defend against every disease, then you would be able to defend against every disease. No shit. But the real world doesn't work that way. And in regards to cancer, your body can suppress cancer cells 99% of times without you even noticing, but it only takes that 1% of the time where it fails for you to become seriously ill.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7653
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2016, 03:29:01 PM »
Tom's logic is, of course, actually correct.

His argument is that if your immune system is strong enough (strong being far more complex than just energy or white blood cell count) then it can defend against any disease.

This is a metaphysical truth but it has no basis in reality.  Since we are talking about reality his metaphysical argument is irrelevant other than to possibly uncover a more effective philosophy in developing treatment.


Quote
His argument is that if your immune system is strong enough (strong being far more complex than just energy or white blood cell count) then it can defend against any disease.

This is like saying if we had a perfect world, then there would be no disease. It is a tautology without any substance.

If you had a perfect immune system that could defend against every disease, then you would be able to defend against every disease. No shit. But the real world doesn't work that way. And in regards to cancer, your body can suppress cancer cells 99% of times without you even noticing, but it only takes that 1% of the time where it fails for you to become seriously ill.

Yes.  It's logical, but what is logical isn't always reality.
I'm sure Tom himself would even say that his immune system is not strong enough to survive most diseases with a mortality rate above 80% and I'm willing to bet he would not intentionally infect himself with one just to prove it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2016, 04:51:31 PM »
That very specific part of his argument may be logical, if uselessly vague, but his original post that supposes that garlic can cure your malignant cancer is off-the-wall bonkers.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7653
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2016, 05:46:27 PM »
That very specific part of his argument may be logical, if uselessly vague, but his original post that supposes that garlic can cure your malignant cancer is off-the-wall bonkers.
Well yes, that goes without saying.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #113 on: December 24, 2016, 04:45:51 AM »
The diseases we have so far discussed have a subset of people whose immune system was strong enough to fight off the disease. This is what my comment was based on. The burden has shifted to you guys to now show that there are diseases that can defeat a strong and healthy immune system.

How are you defining a "strong and healthy immune system".  If you can say something other than "an immune system capable of fighting off any disease" we can actually talk about this point.

If there are diseases that can overwhelm any immune system, then you should be able to point me to a disease with a 100% mortality rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_disease_case_fatality_rates

100% - Prion diseases, or transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSE): Includes Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and all its variants, fatal familial insomnia, kuru, and Gerstmann–Sträussler–Scheinker syndrome.

Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease is one of those "you are already dying" diseases. It mostly affects older people:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/185884.php

Quote
Causes can be sporadic, inherited, or acquired. It mostly affects people over the age of 60 years, and it is rare in people under 30 years old.

It's not like Ebola which everyone can get. It's one of the diseases that is susceptible to after their body is already breaking down. Otherwise the sentence above would say "it affects all ages."

The articles for those disease say "once diagnosed the disease is 100% fatal". This is quite different than it being fatal to everyone who is in contact with it. The body of a healthy immune system eliminates it immediately, and the condition is not "diagnosed."

That very specific part of his argument may be logical, if uselessly vague, but his original post that supposes that garlic can cure your malignant cancer is off-the-wall bonkers.

How, exactly, is it off the wall bonkers when there are a number of university studies saying that garlic and peppers kill cancer?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:32:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #114 on: December 24, 2016, 06:54:07 AM »
That very specific part of his argument may be logical, if uselessly vague, but his original post that supposes that garlic can cure your malignant cancer is off-the-wall bonkers.

How, exactly, is it off the wall bonkers when there are a number of university studies saying that garlic and peppers kill cancer?

I think it was your claim it cures cancer.

I would research the author.  Like how HE decided he had stage 4 cancer and the description he gave.  This is not someone else saying it, it was his claim he diagnosed himself of having stage 4 cancer. I will leave it to you to decide if his description matches stage 4 cancer.

What is known about garlic is it seems to reduce the risk of cancer, that when compounds making up garlic are added in vitro it arrest development and even kills the cells.  However that does not mean it can cure cancer in vivo.

There has yet been a cure discovered using garlic. As of now it shows only being successful in reducing the risk of getting cancer in the first place.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2016, 01:30:01 AM »
Are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe herbal medicines for ailments, despite many herbal concoctions being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years? Why is that?

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2016, 02:44:30 AM »
Are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe herbal medicines for ailments, despite many herbal concoctions being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years? Why is that?

are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe prayer for ailments, despite many psalms being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years?  why is that?
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #117 on: December 28, 2016, 06:13:18 PM »
are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe prayer for ailments, despite many psalms being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years?  why is that?

You apparently have never been to one of the thousands of Catholic hospitals. The MDs there do recommend prayer. There is ample evidence through numerous studies that positive mood and happy outlook can boost the immune system and help someone get over a stressful ailment.

Why would millions of people do something for hundreds of years if no one ever received any kind of benefit from it?

Herbal and natural medicines have been the primary mode of medicine in China for thousands of years, and Traditional Chinese Medicine is still the preferred choice when illness occurs. Its practitioners claim to have cured countless people. Is the entire medical profession in China lying? You are going to have to explain what is happening there.

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2016, 06:35:47 PM »
Are you aware that doctors no longer prescribe herbal medicines for ailments, despite many herbal concoctions being a known cure to many ailments for hundreds of years? Why is that?

1. Not regulated by the FDA
2. Lack of proven efficacy
3. Lack of rigorous clinical trials
4. Lack of precise dosage control
5. And yes... possibly lack of money to be made off it

Regardless of the reasons, it is not evidence that garlic cures cancer. It's barely even related. Your logic is bewildering... doctors avoid prescribing herbal remedies, therefore garlic cures cancer??

Herbal and natural medicines have been the primary mode of medicine in China for thousands of years, and Traditional Chinese Medicine is still the preferred choice when illness occurs. Its practitioners claim to have cured countless people. Is the entire medical profession in China lying? You are going to have to explain what is happening there.

Stop trying to shift the premise of your argument. No one is arguing that all herbal medicine is completely ineffective. Just because SOME herbal medicine is somewhat effective, doesn't prove garlic cures cancer.

That being said, traditional Chinese medicine is absolutely riddled with scams. Especially if it is marketed at foreigners.

Re: Cancer is easily cured with common grocery store items
« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2016, 06:41:28 PM »
You apparently have never been to one of the thousands of Catholic hospitals. The MDs there do recommend prayer. There is ample evidence through numerous studies that positive mood and happy outlook can boost the immune system and help someone get over a stressful ailment.

i completely agree.   curing cancer is trivial.  one merely needs to consult god, who has already provided everything we need for our survival.  your link proves that prayer cures cancer.

there are certain people in the world who will tell you that cancer is terrible and impossible to cure without spending money on herbs, vitamin regimens, and other 'nautral' remedies they sell.  i am here to tell you that this is false.  one does not need to consult an industry which profiteers off the backs of the dying.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.