1

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 08:44:54 PM »

Being 'smart" is nothing to be proud of.  Lots of criminals are 'smart'.   I can't tell you how many times I have heard about the high IQ's possessed by Bundy, Gacy, Manson, and so many more.  It would seem that in order to be a psycho criminal one would have to be a genius.
 There are a lot of miserable 'smart' people.  And there are a lot of so called 'stupid' people who lead rich lives and are well loved; because having a good heart is more important than having a good mind.
It's not the idiots who create most of the problems for the human race.  It is the well accomplished with their fancy college degrees; expensive haircuts and clothes.
 Stupid people can't create big problems.    Only brainy people can create big problems or be master criminals.  Stupid people can't enthrall the crowds with rhetoric of glory and create bizarre political movements or start wars.  Stupid people can't do white collar crime; which as I understand it costs society, in terms of money,  more than so called street crime.
"There once was a golden age because golden hearts beat in it.  If it returns it will be scarcely due to science."  Louis Imogen Guiney
Thank you for reading.

My original point:   aptitude doesn't necessarily indicate good character.   I don't need to defend this statement as it is obviously true.

My other point:  Creation is beautiful and we are all beautiful.  That doesn't mean we don't do ugly things.  We do.  We are our own worst enemies.  None the less we are beautiful.

courage is more important than brains and kindness is more important than courage.

Lots of smart people aren't criminals too. And lots of smart people are happy, loving, compassionate people. You can't make generalizations that don't hold up to scrutiny.

I don't think "we are all beautiful". I think people who fly planes into building full of innocent people and leave children without mothers and fathers are not "beautiful" people. I think bigots are not "beautiful" people. I think people who rape other people are not "beautiful" people.

If smart people "enthrall the crowds with rhetoric of glory and create bizarre political movements or start wars" then who are the people acting on that rhetoric? Are they smart or are they stupid for being fooled?
Because I think if you educate yourself, read history and learn how the world works then "smart" people can never make you go into a war. It is the stupid masses that are lead into the sea like lemmings not the ones who have educated themselves.

R

2

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 08:29:41 PM »

Good Lord... Love vs Robaroni. It's the poorly-formatted-tangled-up-quotes apocalypse! Also, this thread may never end...

This statement is considered intellectual bankruptcy. It is an empty accusation in the attempt to diminish other debaters just as your statement at the beginning of this debate attempted to diminish me by calling me "Sonny". It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

R

3

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 08:20:20 PM »

R
"Anger is fear, (unfulfilled expectations)."


TNR
 (Yes, there is often a correlation between anger and fear. No, they are NOT the same thing.

http://www.2knowmyself.com/relationship_between_anger_and_fear

"Behind anger always lies fear, Even if the angry person appears to be strong and in control fear will always be the reason behind his anger."

"Whenever you find yourself angry just ask yourself one question, what am I afraid of?
If you found yourself shouting at another driver then you might find that you were afraid of the damage that was going to happen to your car."

http://www.psychologyineverydaylife.net/2012/05/29/masks-of-anger-the-fears-that-your-anger-may-be-hiding/

"What Is Anger All About?
There is a strong relationship between anger and fear. Anger is the fight part of the age-old fight-or-flight response to threat."

Once again, you missed my point spectacularly.

I agree, fear is often the reason behind anger. I agree that there is a strong relationship between the two. However, that is not my point.

You said "anger is fear". This is false.

Don't be ridiculous! Read back at what I've said all along. Fear is the root of anger! Geeze, Semantics? Don't waste my time.

There is a huge difference between "anger is fear" and "anger is the root of fear" or "anger is related to fear". The fact that you don't seem to think so is exactly what I mean by "lack of intellectual rigor".

R
 "The root of lust is fear." #233

TNR
"I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?"

I thought we were talking about your statement "Anger is fear". Why are you bringing up lust now? That statement is wrong as well... but why bring it up?

We already went through fear, desire, anger, lust. Go back and reread it and stop with the nonsense.

I know you talked about all those other topics. What does this have to do with your "anger is fear" statement?

Edit: Most people gave up responding to the ironically named "Love" a long time ago. Fair warning.

I already discussed -with references- the root of anger - fear, hate - fear, lust - fear, etc. You were wrong about lust which is desire and the root of that desire is fear. When we desire power, for example, we fear our powerlessness.

You disagreed with my premise that love is the core of human existence. fine, so give me something more important to your emotional well being.

TNR
"but it certainly won't be the only answer"

So, again, CERTAINLY what's a better answer?? AND AGAIN, what is your life worth without loving and being loved? I'm still waiting for this answer too.

You can't just disagree, you haven't given an answer. Something is more important? What is it?

R

4

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 08:05:13 PM »

""That's not true at all! Evolution is critical in knowing biology, of understanding the world we live in and understanding the world we live in enables us interrelate to it."   ROFL
  Evolution is Bullshit.  The only people it helps are the sophists who get grants to write about it.  Dr. Ben Carson is a world class surgeon and he doesn't need evolution.  One can be an effective physician, engineer, biochemist and not believe in evolution.   Because applied math is the same thing as applied science and a biochemist studying nucleotide chemistry in the laboratory; using scientific method, will come to the same conclusions about their subject whether they believe in evolution or not.   

If you want to call mathematics science then fine.   But it really isn't.  Mathematics is free of any ideological influence.  The same can't be said for science.

By the way, "Dude" is a compliment.  It means a well dressed man who has a way with the ladies.  So thank you for addressing me as such.  Good day!

Learning music requires mathematics because the instructions for how to compose and play are complicated.   Music is not science.   But it needs mathematical analysis in order to expand into deeper levels of complexity.

How many times are you going to keep repeating this? I gave you two definitions of mathematics, what more do you need? I'm calling it science because it is science by definition. You're making up your own definition, that doesn't work here!

I don't care what "dude" signifies, it doesn't promote your premise one bit.

"ROFL" is not a logical defense of your position, it's valueless.

Again, I don't care what Ben Carson thinks. If he has a formidable, rational response than post it with a link.

R

5

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 07:43:01 PM »

"Stupidity doesn't either, what's your point?"  I made my point.   You're the one who can't seem to make a point.

enjoying the conversation so I thought I would come back to make a few more comments.


"My point is that stupid people can be destructive and malicious just as much as smart people." Not true and obviously not true.   Stupid people can only be petty criminals whereas smart people can be master criminals.   "Being smart doesn't automatically make you anything."  You are right.  So far the only thing you said that is true.   "You're making unsupportable generalizations. "  No I am not.  I haven't said one thing that isn't true and easily observed to be true.  My initial post that you responded to still stands.

R

Can a stupid person kill someone? Yes! of course, is killing someone a "petty crime"? No!! and your original premise fell flat on its face.

6

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 07:37:38 PM »

R
"Anger is fear, (unfulfilled expectations)."


TNR
 (Yes, there is often a correlation between anger and fear. No, they are NOT the same thing.

http://www.2knowmyself.com/relationship_between_anger_and_fear

"Behind anger always lies fear, Even if the angry person appears to be strong and in control fear will always be the reason behind his anger."

"Whenever you find yourself angry just ask yourself one question, what am I afraid of?
If you found yourself shouting at another driver then you might find that you were afraid of the damage that was going to happen to your car."

http://www.psychologyineverydaylife.net/2012/05/29/masks-of-anger-the-fears-that-your-anger-may-be-hiding/

"What Is Anger All About?
There is a strong relationship between anger and fear. Anger is the fight part of the age-old fight-or-flight response to threat."

Once again, you missed my point spectacularly.

I agree, fear is often the reason behind anger. I agree that there is a strong relationship between the two. However, that is not my point.

You said "anger is fear". This is false.

Don't be ridiculous! Read back at what I've said all along. Fear is the root of anger! Geeze, Semantics? Don't waste my time.

There is a huge difference between "anger is fear" and "anger is the root of fear" or "anger is related to fear". The fact that you don't seem to think so is exactly what I mean by "lack of intellectual rigor".

R
 "The root of lust is fear." #233

TNR
"I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?"

     "Desires and fears. How different they seem. How similar they truly are. How can desire and fear be so totally related? Think of it this way: if you say, "I want to be loved," it's the same thing as saying "I'm afraid I won't be loved."  If you say, "I want to have someone around me," it's the same as saying "I'm afraid of being alone." The truth is that fear and desire are at the root of each other. Rather, than leading us to fulfillment, desires take us away from it. The more desires we have, the greater the fear that those desires will not be fulfilled. And all desires represent one of two things: wanting something we don't have, such as great wealth, or not wanting something we have, such as a pile of overdue bills. We desire good health and vigor; we fear disease. We desire a loving relationship; we fear loneliness. Can you see that if you say, "I want to live," it's the same as saying "I'm afraid I will die,"?"

  "Finding Clarity:  A Guide to the Deeper Levels of Your Being" by Jeru Kabbal adapted by Leonard M. Zunin, M.D. and Robert Strock (North Atlantic Books; 2006),

We already went through fear, desire, anger, lust. Go back and reread it and stop with the nonsense.

R

7

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 07:23:04 PM »

I noticed this question & thought I would try to answer. 1st off, in my experience, most denizens of this board ARE atheists. So you shouldn't have too much of a problem there. As far as Atheism as a concept, yes, 1 can be a moral atheist. I've known several. What is wrong w/ it is that although individuals can be moral, there is no morality to follow per se. Its all up to each person. That is dangerous. Look at what that does when the person is Stalin or Mao. State Atheism has killed far more people than religion could ever have imagined in the worst holy war. But this is NOT to say that Organised Religion is w/o fault. The fact is, imposing anything on anyone is a horrible thing. I have come to have a healthy respecct for, but slight suspicion of, Organised Religion.

Socialized religions are nonmoral, that is they contain both moral and immoral individuals. The problem with religions is that they substitute a system of beliefs that defer personal responsibility from the individual. My book says 'we should kill all those who think differently than us'.

No one is arguing that one cannot be a moral atheist. The problem with atheism is that the individual's mind is closed. If something greater than the self exists the atheist never sees it because the atheist has stopped inquiring. a priori

R

8

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 07:14:32 PM »

Loving and being loved is the core of human existence.

I asked what is more important than loving and being loved? What is your life worth if everyone you love disavows ever loving you? So if you disagree with my premise than you have to show me what is more important to your emotional well being.

Once again, you have missed my point spectacularly. Whether I agree with the statement is beside the point. My point is that it is an opinion that you stated as a fact. Defining the "core" of human existence is not as cut and dry as you are presenting it. Ask 1000 people what the "core" of human existence is. Love will undoubtedly be a popular answer, but it certainly won't be the only answer.

Edit: Your previous post falls under the category "Lack of Intellectual Rigor: Missing the point of a post. Responding with points that are completely irrelevant to the arguments presented."

It's an observation, ...

Fine. Present it as such. Not as a fact.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sapient-nature/201401/the-need-love

"All of us have an intense desire to be loved and nurtured. The need to be loved, as Bowlby’s and others’ experiments have shown, could be considered one of our most basic and fundamental needs. "

Raj Raghunathan Ph.D.

Please notice the rather important qualifiers that I highlighted in red. could be... one of...

" but it certainly won't be the only answer"

OK, than what's a better answer?

Completely irrelevant. It's just an opinion. Not a fact. Stop spouting it off like it is an irrefutable fact.

Now you're just giving me garbage!

"but it certainly won't be the only answer"

So, again, CERTAINLY what's a better answer?? AND AGAIN, what is your life worth without loving and being loved? I'm still waiting for this answer too.

R

9

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 07:09:36 PM »

R
"Anger is fear, (unfulfilled expectations)."


TNR
 (Yes, there is often a correlation between anger and fear. No, they are NOT the same thing.

http://www.2knowmyself.com/relationship_between_anger_and_fear

"Behind anger always lies fear, Even if the angry person appears to be strong and in control fear will always be the reason behind his anger."

"Whenever you find yourself angry just ask yourself one question, what am I afraid of?
If you found yourself shouting at another driver then you might find that you were afraid of the damage that was going to happen to your car."

http://www.psychologyineverydaylife.net/2012/05/29/masks-of-anger-the-fears-that-your-anger-may-be-hiding/

"What Is Anger All About?
There is a strong relationship between anger and fear. Anger is the fight part of the age-old fight-or-flight response to threat."

Once again, you missed my point spectacularly.

I agree, fear is often the reason behind anger. I agree that there is a strong relationship between the two. However, that is not my point.

You said "anger is fear". This is false.

Don't be ridiculous! Read back at what I've said all along. Fear is the root of anger! Geeze, Semantics? Don't waste my time.

R

10

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 06:36:06 PM »

R
"Anger is fear, (unfulfilled expectations)."


TNR
 (Yes, there is often a correlation between anger and fear. No, they are NOT the same thing.

http://www.2knowmyself.com/relationship_between_anger_and_fear

"Behind anger always lies fear, Even if the angry person appears to be strong and in control fear will always be the reason behind his anger."

"Whenever you find yourself angry just ask yourself one question, what am I afraid of?
If you found yourself shouting at another driver then you might find that you were afraid of the damage that was going to happen to your car."

http://www.psychologyineverydaylife.net/2012/05/29/masks-of-anger-the-fears-that-your-anger-may-be-hiding/

"What Is Anger All About?
There is a strong relationship between anger and fear. Anger is the fight part of the age-old fight-or-flight response to threat."

R

11

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 06:24:36 PM »

Loving and being loved is the core of human existence.

I asked what is more important than loving and being loved? What is your life worth if everyone you love disavows ever loving you? So if you disagree with my premise than you have to show me what is more important to your emotional well being.

Once again, you have missed my point spectacularly. Whether I agree with the statement is beside the point. My point is that it is an opinion that you stated as a fact. Defining the "core" of human existence is not as cut and dry as you are presenting it. Ask 1000 people what the "core" of human existence is. Love will undoubtedly be a popular answer, but it certainly won't be the only answer.

Edit: Your previous post falls under the category "Lack of Intellectual Rigor: Missing the point of a post. Responding with points that are completely irrelevant to the arguments presented."

It's an observation, I've observed the effects and massive importance of love and being loved on individuals universally and from that I made the statement above. Again, you can disagree with it but you must give me something more profound than loving and being loved.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sapient-nature/201401/the-need-love

"All of us have an intense desire to be loved and nurtured. The need to be loved, as Bowlby’s and others’ experiments have shown, could be considered one of our most basic and fundamental needs. "

Raj Raghunathan Ph.D.

" but it certainly won't be the only answer"

OK, than what's a better answer?

R

12

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 06:11:18 PM »

R
"Science? Science says let the weak die and have more healthier offspring for a better chance of genetic survival. Self preservation, man's greatest drive, even single cell organism strive for self preservation but we still give our life for the dying child."

TNR
"That's not what "science" says. The process of evolution tends to reward preservation of the species, but it doesn't necessarily instill an innate drive to preserve the species or self above all else."

I don't see anything in my statement referring to evolution. It's basic logic. Live and have more offspring, why give my life to save the sick dying one? Mathematically (science) my chances of genetic survival, if that's my goal, are better if I let let the weak die and continually to procreate.

R

13

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:54:01 PM »

Loving and being loved is the core of human existence.

I asked what is more important than loving and being loved? What is your life worth if everyone you love disavows ever loving you? So if you disagree with my premise than you have to show me what is more important to your emotional well being.

R

14

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:43:09 PM »

"Stupidity doesn't either, what's your point?"  I made my point.   You're the one who can't seem to make a point.

My point is that stupid people can be destructive and malicious just as much as smart people. Being smart doesn't automatically make you anything. You're making unsupportable generalizations.

R

15

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:16:33 PM »

 "ROFL"

This is meaningless to me.

R

16

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:04:00 PM »

"That's not true at all! Evolution is critical in knowing biology, of understanding the world we live in and understanding the world we live in enables us interrelate to it."   ROFL

"We are all beautiful, even you."

"This is an opinion, it is valueless."  Not to me.    "If 1000 people walk by you and tell you that you are beautiful does it make you any more beautiful than if no one told you?" Yes it does make me more beautiful.   The more one shares beautiful things the more beautiful those things become.  It is the reason humanity loves artists.  " "No, not one iota."  Wrong again.  And you are still beautiful.  Everyone is.

Beautiful is a subjective perspective. You just called "Manson Bundy, Gacy, Manson, and so many more psycho criminal" Are they beautiful? How about Hitler or Milosevic and his ethnic cleansing? I wouldn't call him beautiful.

"The more one shares beautiful things the more beautiful those things become."

According to this statement, they are already "beautiful". I don't think everything is beautiful. I don't think ticks that give people Lime Disease are beautiful, I don't think they are something I want to share or that they become more beautiful if I do share them.


 "It is the reason humanity loves artists."

I don't love artists, I may like artwork from specific artists. I like Kandinsky's work.

R

17

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 04:59:16 PM »

"I studied math and I am good at it."

This statement is valueless.
Not to me it isn't.  But, you are entitled to your opinion such as it is.

First, it's relative, 'good' is a subjective term. are you better than Bernhard Riemann? Did you win the Fields Medal? Better than a sixth grader? In this debate you're arguing that mathematics is not science. I showed this statement to be wrong  by definition so how 'good' or for that matter 'bad' you are in math is a non sequitur.

R

18

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 04:39:29 PM »

"Saying evolution is "bullshit" is void of reason, it is an opinion regardless who says it!"  It is bullshit.  If all the evolution texts just disappeared and professors quit teaching it the human race would still be in the same place as it is from a technical standpoint.   You are void of reason.  I think you just want to troll; which is okay with me.  We are all beautiful, even you.

That's not true at all! Evolution is critical in knowing biology, of understanding the world we live in and understanding the world we live in enables us interrelate to it.

"We are all beautiful, even you."

This is an opinion, it is valueless. If 1000 people walk by you and tell you that you are beautiful does it make you any more beautiful than if no one told you? No, not one iota.

R

19

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 04:32:09 PM »

Hammers do to hurt people.   Accidents happen and I had to go to the emergency room one time because of an accident involving a hammer.  Dude you strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

Can a hammer walk across a room and smack you on the thumb? No! You hurt yourself with the hammer, it was entirely you, the hammer is not alive. This is called anthropomorphic thinking!

"Dude you strain a gnat and swallow a camel."

Dude, I have no idea what you mean by this!

R

20

Flat Earth Community / Re: What is the problem with Atheism?

« on: July 30, 2016, 04:26:45 PM »

"Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), Contradicts your argument."  Mathematics is the art (art being anything men make that otherwise wouldn't exist in nature) of organization.    I studied math and I am good at it.  As far as Doctor Ben goes it is well within forensic custom to quote experts.  And Dr. Ben is an expert in biochemistry.  He would have to be.  But you are right the ipse dixits can not be considered compelling.  Still, lawyers and professional advocates use them in forensic debate.  Yo haven't effectively refuted anything I said.

"I studied math and I am good at it."

This statement is valueless.

Did you ever hear of a book called "The ART of Electronics" by two Harvard professors. It's still science!

1
:  the science of numbers and their operations, interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations

Saying evolution is "bullshit" is void of reason, it is an opinion regardless who says it!

R