1

Flat Earth Theory / Universal Acceleration at higher altitudes

« on: December 26, 2018, 08:33:48 AM »

Most flat earthers seem to deny the existence of gravity.
I have seen some try to explain that objects fall to the ground because of density
But the flat earth society has created a novel idea called Universal Acceleration, whereby the flat earth is accelerating "upward" at the rate of 9.8 m/s^2.
If the whole earth is accelerating at the same speed how does this explain that at higher altitudes (eg on top of a mountain) objects fall at a slower speed?
Obviously on a spherical earth gravity decreases as an object moves further away from the centre of the earth.
But for a flat earth Universal Acceleration fails to explain why the acceleration of falling bodies is not constant at different altitudes.

Any ideas?

2

Flat Earth Theory / Re: What is the best evidence that "the horizon always remains at eye level"?

« on: December 24, 2018, 09:28:51 AM »

PLEASE READ THIS FIRST BEFORE COMMENTING:

In this thread, I'm not here to debunk, or pick apart, or provide counter-evidence for the claim, and I'd like it if others did the same.

What I'm looking for is the best piece of evidence that "the horizon is always at eye level".

I have looked in the wiki, but there aren't any photos or videos there, just words.

Photos or videos is what I need.

It's for an upcoming discussion with a flat earther. I've asked him to bring his best evidence, but I'm worried it won't be the best possible evidence. So I thought I'd try and find some for him.

My only responses will be something along the lines of: "thank you"; or "have you got anything from a higher altitude?"; or "have you get anything with any indicators or measurements in it?" And I'd like it if other debunkers stuck to this sort of thing - i.e., do what they can to help me find a good piece of flat earth evidence to support this claim, rather than dissecting the not so good ones.

Cheers.

Wolfie6020 is a pilot with QANTAS and flies all around the world ... his videos are well done and explain things very simply
In this video he was a passenger flying home to Australia from LAX.
It very clearly shows that the horizon does NOT rise to eye level!
Enjoy!

3

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Using a telescope to see across the planet,

« on: December 13, 2018, 03:01:17 AM »

Hi, so I have a question, if the earth is flat why can I not stand on Australia and with a telescope see the uk? Hypertheticaly speaking there is no mountain ranges or natural barriers in the way. If your theory was correct then this would be possible

Obviously Australia to UK is a huge distance... but it should be possible to see the multi storey buildings along the coast of West Palm Beach (in Florida) from Myrtle Beach (North Carolina) a distance of 500km with a telescope on a clear day ... IF the earth was flat!! Any takers??

4

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Pre-satellite measurements of position

« on: December 10, 2018, 02:35:07 PM »

0.1 degrees works out to approximately 10kms so it looks like everything still checks out. Total Lackey, we forgive your excitement to yell GOTCHA!

0.1 ARCSECONDS, not 0.1 DEGREES !!!
1 arc second is 1/3600th of a degree, so 0.1 arcsecond is 1/36000th of one degree - I doubt very much if navigators, google maps or GPS works at that minute scale.

Here is my calculation...
Continents are moving on average 2.5cm per year, which is 0.025 metres/year, or 0.000025km/year
The circumference of the earth is 40,000km

0.000025/40,000*360 = 0.0000002025 degrees *3600 ~ 0.00073 ARCSECONDS (in whatever direction)

I do believe that in 100 years we will still be able to find New Zealand!!!

Or 0.00002 degrees in 100 years ie

5

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Polaris doesnt move throughout the year

« on: December 10, 2018, 02:06:48 PM »

If the earth tilts etc through the year then why does polaris stay in the same place. This is very odd. Rers?

Because we tilt in the same direction all year.
This video explains how the seasons work on the spherical earth, which is because of the fact that we tilt in the same direction all year.
Polaris is directly above the North Pole which is tilted in the same direction at 23 degrees all year, so Polaris is basically always directly above if you are at the north pole.

6

Flat Earth Theory / Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?

« on: December 10, 2018, 02:57:29 AM »

I'm not sure.

But given that we can all see the north star - well, 90% of us - I think it's pretty safe to say they believe in that.

I have only ever seen Polaris when I have travelled to the Northern Hemisphere, even in Indonesia when I was just 8 degrees south of the equator Polaris was not visible!
Apparently only 12% of us live south of the equator ... I very much doubt that anyone who has ever traveled to the southern hemisphere and done any serious star gazing down here, and compared it to what you can observe from the northern hemisphere would believe the flat earth model.


There is absolutely NO flat earth explanation of the southern stars, and observations of their movement in the southern hemisphere!

7

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Based on what?

« on: December 07, 2018, 07:55:49 AM »

This former astronomy major doesn't seem to have an issue with it:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Kings_Dethroned.html?id=xnu4AAAAIAAJ

This book is very thought-provoking! I couldn't put it down! Now I am looking everywhere for the promised sequel, "The Universe as it Is". As a former astronomy major, it seems so clear to me that the blunders that Mr. Hickson so ably describes have indeed been made the flawed foundation for a very grand and deadly edifice of error in the subject of astronomy. And yet the world laughs at 'crackpots' like Gerrard Hickson, and condemns his work to MIT's 'Library of Useless Research' because it dares to challenge the underpinnings of this whole imaginary astronomical philosophy. Highly recommended!

Another review by Forgotten Books:

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/KingsDethroned_10031911

At the turn of the twentieth century, Gerrard Hickson stumbled upon a discovery which convinced him of something shocking. The giants of astronomy had miscalculated the distance of the sun from the Earth, it was closer than we ever thought. The popular estimate of approximately ninety-three million miles appeared to be a mistake, as inconceivable as it seemed.

Hickson pored through the methods that his predecessors had used to calculate the distance and the accounts of their work, searching for the means to disprove his theory but instead he found a mistake in Dr. Hailey’s diurnal method. Invented by Hailey in the nineteenth century and used as a basis for many other calculations about our solar system.

We can only imagine that Hickson must have gritted his teeth when he set himself the challenge of proving Dr. Hailey’s error. Kings Dethroned is the result of his research, and through his retracing of the steps of astronomers from the Roman Empire all the way up to the present day, we can see an accurate representation of the planets and our sun.

Gerrard Hickson, unlike his predecessors, took his findings to the general public and published this book for the consumption of all. Having been rejected or ignored by experts and scientific societies across the western world, he chose to trust in the public. He felt that the truth and his discovery were the wealth of the whole human species and in this modern age it does the reader only good to contemplate the necessity of constant and honest scientific enquiry.

It seems strange to be relying on almost 100 year old "science"! Perhaps it would be advantageous to have a look at how far Astronomy and Physics have come in the last 96 years?? Now that we know about black holes, the cosmic background radiation, red shift, gravitational wave events (caused by Neutron star collisions) and we have new optical telescopes which make use of interferometry and can improve resolution by combining images from separate telescopes. Or are we approaching another Middle Ages? Where virtually no new knowledge is gained by mankind for 500 years!!!

I'm so glad the cardiologist that operated on my heart, the motor mechanic that services my car, and the pilot of the Boeing 787 I flew in a month ago did not get their qualifications in the early 1920's, and then refuse to learn anything new !!

8

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Eratosthenes according to FE Wiki

« on: December 06, 2018, 03:38:39 PM »

Eratosthenes certainly had assistance during his shadow experiment. In his account of the experiment as part of his highly acclaimed Cosmos TV series, the late Carl Sagan explains how Eratosthenes hired or employed someone to pace out the entire distance from Alexandria to Syene. However I have neither seen or read any mention of doubt that the conception of the experiment or the results and calculations which led Eratosthenes to his conclusion was the work of anyone but him. Eratosthenes was considered nothing short of a genius in multiple disciplines and he is widely credited as being the founder of what we today called Geography.


Contrary to many modern accounts, it was widely accepted by the ancient Greeks that the Earth was spherical and that the size of the Earth was very small in comparison to the apparently infinite distance of the stars. So Eratosthenes conclusions in his shadow experiment would not have come as any great surprise to them.

As regards your other question Tom, I have often paused for a moment and tried to contemplate how we would approach such a problem if we had lived during the era of ancient Greece. We have the benefit of the huge wealth of knowledge that has been accumulated by great minds through the generations. Knowledge that is so easily taken for granted now. Accurate time keeping is a very recent development in human history and I believe it was Galileo who resorted to the regularity of his own heartbeat to solve this problem as best he could.

Given the significant limitations in the tools and knowledge available to them at the time, the Ancient Greeks and other civilisations made many basically correct predictions about the world and what lay beyond it. If such minds existed today, supported by the knowledge and technology available today, we can only speculate about what they might achieve.   

Remember also that Eratosthenes actually calculated the POLAR circumference of the earth, given that Alexandria and Syene are (almost) at the same longitude.

Not that it makes much difference as the actual polar circumference and equatorial circumference only differ by 41 miles.

9

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Flat earth interrogation

« on: April 03, 2017, 11:38:48 PM »

Not everything is counterintuitive either.  Get over yourself.

Most of the science that deals with the FE Theroy is, though. But, in all honesty what weight am I putting into the words of the man who is content to not even explore possibilities that could disprove the FE due to its complexity:

It would be interesting to be able to make sense of the absurdities of quantum mechanics, but there are just some things we can easily observe without understanding with our present level of knowledge.  Perhaps some day.

I have explored a great deal that people such as yourself have claimed dispute a flat Earth and it has all been wanting.  It's not your fault you believe what you do and I have the greatest sympathy.  But the Earth is flat.  Deal with it.

Roundy - have you ever travelled to the southern hemisphere to observe the stars and moon from down here?
Have you ever travelled to Antarctica and the South Pole (as 44,000 people do every year) to check out that there is no edge, no guards, and 24 hour sunshine during the southern summer etc ?
Have you ever taken a flight from Sydney to Santiago to prove that the flight times of less than 12 hours would be impossible on the flat earth map ?
And finally, why is there no decent map of the flat earth that shows continents in their correct proportions and correct distances around them and between them ?

10

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Have you been to the southern/outer latitudes?

« on: April 03, 2017, 01:02:23 PM »

More of a survey than a debate, but open to debate, as all topics are in this forum.

The Flat Earth Theory seems to be a nothern/inner latitude thing. Far fewer people outside North America seem to subscribe to it and I would like to see what kind of proportion actually presents on this forum.

Have you been to any country below/outside the equator?
If so, have your observations matched your respective assertions?
If not, how do you justify making said assertions without firsthand observations?

If you live in the southern hemisphere (as I do) and have travelled to the northern hemisphere (which I have) then you have proof that the flat earth model is bull - the stars tell the story perfectly... observastions made in both the southern and northern hemisphere could never be observed on a flat earth ... but a spherical earth explains all observations perfectly!!

11

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Mathematical calculations

« on: January 13, 2017, 12:47:01 AM »

If the sun is only 3000 miles away, wouldn't mathematicians have noted it centuries ago?

Not if they had started out by assuming that the sun is large and faraway. Applying calculations to the natural universe presupposes that those calculations accurately reflect what reality is. However, determining what reality is requires a more complex inclusion of one's fundamental conceptions of reality. One must use not only math, but rationally informed empirical observation as well. The globularists start out with faith in the scientific method, and then apply math towards what they think science predicts what reality should be. Mathematicians did not notice that the sun is much closer to the surface of the earth because their system of belief led them to assume it was faraway, and they based their calculations on that improper assumption. But in reality, using simple geometry shows that the sun is close to the surface of the earth:

Using the crepuscular rays pictured above, simply measuring the the angle of the rays shows geometrically that the sun is not 93,000,000 million miles away.

How are the calculations of "the Universe being 13 billion light years across" faked?

I am not personally aware of tfes official position on the size of the universe. But as a Planar Theorist I can say that any facts put forth by nasa, or studies based on information disseminated by nasa should be regarded with a grain of salt. But again, nasa's "calculations" are based on a system of belief that presupposes the universe is large. What observations have shown this?

Since astronomy is so top-heavy with mathematics, wouldn't astronomers discover a fakery?

Again, what is the assumed structure of reality to which the mathematics are being applied? Math is always true. But just because you assume reality happens to exist in a certain way, applying math to that conception does not make it true. I could cite you the blue prints of the the Enterprise from Star Trek, and the math underlying its architecture and engineering would "work". But that does not make the Enterprise real.

Crepuscular Rays appear angled due to perpective.
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/atoptics/ray1.htm

The distance to the sun was not calculated by NASA but by observation of the transit of Venus, first in 1761 and 8 years later in 1769.
Astronomers sailed and travelled to distant places on earth to time the duration of the transit. The data was all collected by French Astronomer Jérôme Lalande and his calculation was within 2% of the most recent calculations
Seeing you believe that "Math is always true" this is how the calculations were made
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/29363/how-did-halley-calculate-the-distance-to-the-sun-by-measuring-the-transit-of-ven

As our telescopes have gained in strength we have been able to see further into space and therefore more detail of our universe.
NASA is not the only institution that makes calculations such as the size of the universe. There are many independent observatories all over the world who make the observations and calculations which NASA then uses.
NASA's observatories are all in space !! eg Hubble, Chandra, Compton and Spitzer https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/postsecondary/features/F_NASA_Great_Observatories_PS.html
But of course you will just say that they are all fake and that all the images beamed back to earth by them are CGI !!!

Ignorance is bliss !!

12

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The "Conspiracy"

« on: January 12, 2017, 04:52:05 AM »

The problem with this is that Astronomy and knowledge of a spherical earth existed a long long long time before NASA
To put it into perpective ...

I studied the History of Astronomy as part of my Undergraduate Science degree at University in the very early 1970's
Here's a brief summary ...
**Pythagoras first put forward his evidence for a spherical earth in 600 BC. There has never been a time since then that any scholar of any regard has refuted that we live on a spherical planet ?

**By 300BC it was common knowledge that the earth rotated to give day and night and the moon travelled around the earth once every 28 days, resulting in the phases of the moon.
At this time it was well known that 5 of the objects seen in the night sky were "planets" and not stars. Before this they were often called "wandering stars" because their path across the sky had been observed to have a retrograde motion.

**About 270BC Aristarchus calculated the distance to the moon and the size of the moon

**Aristarchus also believed that the sun was the centre of our solar system and even calculated the correct order of the visible planets. He also said that the stars were distant suns. This was not accepted at the time because religions and other Astronomers such as Ptolemy and Aristotle could not accept that anything other than the earth was the centre of the universe. (Man is such an egocentrical beast !!! lol)

**Eratosthenes worked out the circumference of the earth to within 10% about 250BC

**Around 150 BC Hipparchus discovered the precession of the equinoxes.

**In 1543 Copernicus published his book  De revolutionibus orbium coelestium which described a heliocentric solar system ie the sun at the centre and the earth and other planets travelling around the sun. This also perfectly explained the retrograde motion of the planets. He also had the visible planets in the correct order. The publication of this book was one of the most pivotal moments in Scientific History, as it set the scene for the establishment of The Scientific Method, and is now often referred to as "the Copernican Revolution"

**In 1608 Lippershey invented the telescope with a magnification of 3X

**In 1610 using a 20X refractor telescope Galileo discovered 4 of Jupiter's moons

**In 1761 astronomers who travelled to various parts of the world, calculated the distance to the sun using the transit of Venus across the sun, using information left by Hubble who knew he would not live long enough to be able to do this himself.

1781 Uranus is discovered
1846 Neptune is disovered
1930 Pluto is discovered

1958 NASA founded.

We also knew about comets, most of the larger moons of the other planets, how and why solar and lunar eclipses occur, eliptical orbits of the planets, Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's Laws of Relativity (In fact Einstein died in 1955)

WHAT conspiracy ??

Why do flat earthers deny this history???
I studied the History of Astronomy as part of my Science Degree in 1973 but my lecturer was in his 70's by then and had been teaching this stuff for about 40 years ... WAY before NASA was founded in 1958 !!!

13

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Earth is Round

« on: January 10, 2017, 02:03:21 AM »

Here is the only needed evidence to prove that the earth is round:

1) Gravity exists | We can observer the gravity exists from the tides rising when the moon or sun is overhead. The gravity from the sun or moon will exert its gravitational pull on the water, causing the level of the water to rise.

2) Gravity intends to pull everything into a sphere like object (a spheroid) | Just look at any celestial body (eg. the moon). Any body with enough mass will intend to pull itself into a spheroid. The moon, sun, and every other planet is a spheroid because of their gravitational pull.

3) The earth is massive enough to be classified to be a planet | We can observe the affect of the earth's gravity on the moon, and you can calculate that the earth is roughly 6 time larger than the moon. If the moon has enough gravity to pull itself into a sphere, then the earth should have more than enough gravity to pull itself into a sphere.

In conclusion, because gravity exists and gravity will always attempt to pull a massive object (like the earth) into spheroid (just like every other object in the solar system), the earth is sphere shaped.

IMHO the ONLY evidence you need is that Polaris can't be see from the southern hemisphere.
No flat earther has ever been able to explain that !!

14

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Earth is Round

« on: January 10, 2017, 02:00:34 AM »

Gravity intends to pull everything into a sphere like object

Scary! When?!!

LOL - It's called the "middle age spread"
Everyone get rounder as they get older !!!
Keep eating as much junk food as you like folks... it's gravity that makes you rotund !!

15

Flat Earth Theory / Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse

« on: January 10, 2017, 12:46:08 AM »

Has the FES been making any predictions or just using the data that is being generated by the spherical scientists?

The data would be precisely identical. What would be the point of hiring someone (and where would we get the funding?) to replicate someone else's work? There's plenty of more useful things we could be doing.

NO! NO!! NO!!! The data would NOT be identical !!!! The data would NOT be PRECISELY identical !!!!!
NASA calculates solar eclipse information based on a spherical earth, with the moon revolving around it, in a heliocentric solar system !!!

Predictions for the Total Solar Eclipse of 2017 Aug 21 were generated using the JPL DE405 solar and lunar ephemerides and a value of ΔT = 68.4 seconds.
The eclipse predictions presented here DO NOT include the effects of mountains and valleys along the edge of the Moon. Such corrections for the lunar limb profile may shift the limits of the eclipse path north or south by ~1-3 kilometers, and change the eclipse duration by ~1-3 seconds. More detailed predictions including the effects of the lunar limb profile are normally posted 12-18 months before each eclipse

NASA's calculations would NOT work if the earth was flat and at the centre of the solar system, or if we were in a dome !!

16

Flat Earth Theory / Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse

« on: January 10, 2017, 12:33:33 AM »

I don't understand - why is a Round Earther trying to explain FET/Zeteticism to another Round Earther? You'd think you would have left it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about if you cared so much about truth over starting with a premise and saying whatever it takes to confirm it.

That said, eclipses are cyclical. You can predict future eclipses by following the well-known and documented pattern. This is true for both FET and RET.

Here is the information available online for the total eclipse of August 21 2017 https://www.greatamericaneclipse.com/best-places-to-view/

Scroll down and look at how much information is provided for every state that will experience the eclipse ...
Every location ... when totality will start, how long totality will last ... to the EXACT second !!! How is that worked out on a flat earth?

Here is how NASA calculated this data http://newatlas.com/total-solar-eclipse-path-usa-nasa/47297/

MUCH more complex than "oh we had one in 1897 they occur every 120 years over USA" !!

Because solar eclipses can be predicted perfectly based on our knowledge of the movement of the earth and moon around the sun !!

17

Flat Earth Theory / The "Conspiracy"

« on: January 10, 2017, 12:19:03 AM »

I've just noticed that the wiki "Conspiracy" page has been updated and now claims that NASA still does not know what shape the planet is, and they have never been to space.
All the "fake" space travel is because of the Cold War, and USA wanting to prove they had military dominance.
Check it out here ... https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy#Motive_of_the_Conspiracy

However ... as of November 6, 2013, a total of 536 people from 38 countries have gone into space according to the FAI guideline.
Of the 536, three people completed only a sub-orbital flight, 533 people reached Earth orbit, 24 traveled beyond low Earth orbit and 12 walked on the Moon.

Space travelers have spent over 29,000 person-days (or a cumulative total of over 77 years) in space including over 100 person-days of spacewalks.

Also 3 countries - USA, Russia and China have sent manned spacecraft into space.

Questions ...
1. What are Russia and China's reasons for "faking" space travel?
2. How do you account for the fact that 536 people from 38 countries are running around the world, doing interviews etc. Are all of these other countries in on the conspiracy too?
3. We have the technology, why do flat earthers continue to deny we have conquered space?

18

Flat Earth Theory / Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse

« on: January 09, 2017, 12:56:29 PM »

Well that's a little disappointing.   I would have throught that a model that was fully embraced would have the ability to not only explain but also predict.   

Yes but none of them seem to be aware of exactly what the Scientific Method involves.

They start from a premise and then try to twist the "facts" around to suit the model. And when the real observations and facts don't fit their model they invent something new eg there is no gravity, a "shadow object" causes a lunar eclipse, "celestial gravitation" (whatever that is) accounts for tides  (https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Gravitation) etc

Virtually the same way the creationists work.

Whereas of course Science works the other way ... we make observations ... devise a theory that accounts for ALL of the observations, and then test our theory by making predictions.

19

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why?

« on: January 08, 2017, 10:54:27 AM »

Yeah I read one story that said there are U.N. guards posted all around it and no one was allowed in

So they have invented some pretty elaborate excuses why they can not go there.

But anyway if it is only 150 feet high that is still higher than most ships

e ?

U.N. Guards  I thought it was N.A.S.A. 

Whom do you think oversees the NASholes?

Then I suppose that we can consider the U.N. as part of "The Round Earth Conspiracy", too ?

But wait a minute. Doesn't the FES consider the U.N. logo as a flat earth map and proof of a flat earth ? But there seems to be a conflict of opinion? RE considers the U.N. logo as a stylized copy of The Azimuthal Equidistant Projection of the globe ? 

OK-Then....Who guarded the ice ring before the UN and NASA ? The League Of Nations ?  Nazi Storm Troopers during World War Two ? The Holy Roman Empire ? Or did it not need to be guarded until recently  ?

Also..... Rowbotham must have seen the ice ring -  Quote - " A place of howling winds,, eternal darkness, frigid temperatures.........."

How would Rowbotham know anything about Antarctica ... he never left the northern hemisphere !!!

20

Flat Earth Theory / Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse

« on: January 08, 2017, 10:46:15 AM »

So the Flat Earth Society has no explanation for a solar eclipse?  They are unable to predict it?

I'd say so ...