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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2014, 11:21:41 PM »
Oh come now.  My argument that the only perfect being is the one that doesn't exist isn't THAT bad.

The idea of "best" implies an objectively perfect ham sandwich, so it wouldn't matter if a person normally prefers wheat or white bread.
Why?  Best implies that it's loved by all who eat it.  (who doesn't love the best?)  Which means that best must be subjective, in the case of ham sandwiches.

And in the case of God, Best is also subjective.  Tell me, What defines the Best God?  What can he do or not do?  Is it a he?  What is it's personality like?  Does it smite the wicked?  Does it use it's power to reshape the universe to give everyone infinite space so no conflicts occur? 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2014, 11:25:23 PM »
Oh come now.  My argument that the only perfect being is the one that doesn't exist isn't THAT bad.

The idea of "best" implies an objectively perfect ham sandwich, so it wouldn't matter if a person normally prefers wheat or white bread.
Why?  Best implies that it's loved by all who eat it.

No, it means it has the most benefit, not that the most amount of people desire it.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2014, 11:43:58 PM »
Oh come now.  My argument that the only perfect being is the one that doesn't exist isn't THAT bad.

The idea of "best" implies an objectively perfect ham sandwich, so it wouldn't matter if a person normally prefers wheat or white bread.
Why?  Best implies that it's loved by all who eat it.

No, it means it has the most benefit, not that the most amount of people desire it.
Benefit?  That sounds subjective to me.  And what benefit would you give a ham sandwich? 
caloric intake?  Taste?  Enjoyment?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2014, 11:57:38 PM »
I remember seeing a similar argument "proving" that god doesn't exist. It goes more or less like
1 - The creation of the universe is the greatest achievement imaginable
2 - The merit of an action consists of an intrinsic greatness and the ability of the creator
3 - The greater the handicap to the creator, the greater the action
4 - The biggest handicap to a creator is non-existence
5 - Therefore, if the universe was created by a creator, it would be a greater achievement if the creator was non-existing than otherwise
6 - God does not exist

Edit: Upon further research, this is called Gasking's proof.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 11:59:53 PM by stupendous man »

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2014, 12:02:26 AM »
Oh come now.  My argument that the only perfect being is the one that doesn't exist isn't THAT bad.

The idea of "best" implies an objectively perfect ham sandwich, so it wouldn't matter if a person normally prefers wheat or white bread.
Why?  Best implies that it's loved by all who eat it.

No, it means it has the most benefit, not that the most amount of people desire it.
Benefit?  That sounds subjective to me. 

Don't over exert yourself thinking about this too much Lord Dave. The OP gave a shit example. Presumably, there is only one path to god, but there are different benefits that come with ham sandwiches for different people. So for the purpose of this shitty discussion, the perfect ham sandwich is the one that gives the most amount of people a comprehensive amount of benefit. Let's call it "Ham Sandwich Prime".
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 12:05:21 AM by Andrew »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2014, 12:28:15 AM »
Oh come now.  My argument that the only perfect being is the one that doesn't exist isn't THAT bad.

The idea of "best" implies an objectively perfect ham sandwich, so it wouldn't matter if a person normally prefers wheat or white bread.
Why?  Best implies that it's loved by all who eat it.

No, it means it has the most benefit, not that the most amount of people desire it.
Benefit?  That sounds subjective to me. 

Don't over exert yourself thinking about this too much Lord Dave. The OP gave a shit example. Presumably, there is only one path to god, but there are different benefits that come with ham sandwiches for different people. So for the purpose of this shitty discussion, the perfect ham sandwich is the one that gives the most amount of people a comprehensive amount of benefit. Let's call it "Ham Sandwich Prime".
Then how do you define the best god?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2014, 12:43:23 AM »
There's no way a person could know that. The notion of a perfect god requires that said god would possess qualities or perform actions we are incapable of understanding or imagining, so the ontological argument sort of disproves itself.

Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2014, 02:21:54 AM »
Actually, as strange as this will sound, using Augustinian logic, existence is better than non-existence. Therefore, an existing Hitler is better than one who does not exist. HOWEVER, and this is key, every time Hitler does something evil, he becomes less existent. Why?

Evil does not exist per se. Evil is defined as an absence of good. In other words, God is the Summum Bonum, the All Good. When you do something that is less than all good, you become less than All Good, ie, less than God. Humans were less than that already in Paradise, by virtue of being Created things. But, they did not know the difference between Good and Evil, and could have lived forever there as a result, in union with their heavenly Father.

Hitler would have existed. But he would not have been what he was. After humans learned what Evil was, by the commission of the sin of disobedience to God, and were forced out of Paradise, they knew to choose Good or Evil. At this point, choosing evil renders the soul less than All Good, less existent.

Notice that although they had insanely long lifespans, they still died. And eventually, their lifespans contracted to what they are today. Moses lived to be 120, which is what the very oldest of our people are living to be today. As they chose more and more the evil, they became less and less existent spiritually before God, until the Flood, when God eliminated them except for a small number.

After that, starting anew with a small number of people (however you want to interpret that), people still could choose the good or the evil. Using Hitler as an example (by the way; Godwin's Law, you lose [I'm kidding; its actually not a bad example]), his existence is better than his non-existence. He made himself less existent by the evil choices he made. Granted, this is no comfort to the people whose lives he took. But, lets be honest, if it hadn't been him, it would have been another asshole. If it hadn't been us, it would have been some other group.

We aren't the only ones to have ever been "genocided" (to coin a word). We just happen to perhaps have had the largest numbers lost. 6 million IS a hell of a lot to lose. I don't recall any other genocide taking quite that number, although in terms of a percentage, some have taken an equal percentage (or even higher) of the population at which they were aimed.

I think perhaps the craziest was the auto-genocide in Cambodia. What crazy bastard kills his own people, for fuck's sake? That one just boggles the mind. I understand killing other people. I don't like it, but I can at least wrap my head around it. They are the enemy, kill them. But your own people? Holy shit.

Back to my point. Another example. If John rapes a woman, Jane. Jane surely suffers an evil. There is no doubt of that. But John suffers an even greater evil in the philosophical sense insofar as he becomes less existent in his soul. This renders him more likely to do awful things in the future because he is less able to resist the power that evil now has over him, as he is less good. Now, that may not be a comfort to Jane. But it is something to think about.

There is actually an argument in this line of reasoning to be made AGAINST the State using the death penalty. As much as John might deserve it, does the State want to put itself in the position of committing the evil act of killing someone, and thus render itself less existent in its collective soul?

I had to write a paper on that. Having always been pro-death penalty, it was an interesting way to look at it, and I got an A on the paper. Definitely interesting. Anyway, for whatever those thoughts are worth. I have to go. The wife will be home soon.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2014, 02:33:45 AM »
Evil makes you exist less?
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.  Existence physically doesn't change with good or evil.  Social existence (if you're noticed in the world) increases drastically the more evil you are.  We all remember Hitler, but we forgot the men who stopped him.

So tell me how one exists less?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2014, 02:38:23 AM »
Evil makes you exist less?
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.  Existence physically doesn't change with good or evil.  Social existence (if you're noticed in the world) increases drastically the more evil you are.  We all remember Hitler, but we forgot the men who stopped him.

So tell me how one exists less?

It is just Yaakov asserting this and also trying to slip in his definition of Evil as the one we should accept.  We all know this is balls.

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Offline Shane

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Re: Anselm's Ontological Ham Sandwiches
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2014, 03:13:31 AM »
Wow good thread
Quote from: Rushy
How do you know you weren't literally given metaphorical wings?