[I am Seeker of Truth]

Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development.

I am reading a  well written book titled "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth" written by Christine Garwood.

It tracks the Flat Earth model from as early at circa 302-311 in the works of Firmianus Lactantius. In the third book of his "Divine Institutions" - "On the False Wisdom of the Philosophers" he "...ridiculed the notion of a sphere where people on the other side lived with their feet above their heads, rain..." (From Page 9, "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth")

"The Christian topography of Cosmas[sig]" by  Indicopleustes, circa 548, also attacks the idea of the earth being a sphere.

Christine Garwood's book goes on to detail the history of the Flat earth idea all the way up to the 1970's. She introduces the reader to many of the characters involved in the flat earth debate - Joseph Holden, Lady Elizabeth Anne Mould Blount, Wilbur Glenn Voliva, Shenton, Charles K. Johnson, Robert J. Schadewald, Samuel Bieley Rowbotham (I called him self, lectured, and wrote under the name Parallax) ...

Your saying that the "Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development" raises the question - how long is it going to take for the "theory" to be "developed."

But - hold on a minute - as used in science, the word "theory"  is defined as:

"a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation: the scientific theory of evolution."

Scientific theory | Define Scientific theory at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/scientific-theory

The flat earth idea has not yet cleared the bar to be called a scientific theory. It is an idea, a model, etc. but not a scientific "theory."

If you want to look at some of the published works about the flat earth idea, go to https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony1899WinshipRectangle1899 to get "Flat Earth Book Collection Archive Study Pack zetetics"

If you have not used archive.org much and don't understand how to download a zipped file containing all of the publications on this archive.org page, you can use this link to download the zip file containing the 63 PDFs. The size  of the zip file is 316 MB and the 63 PDFs will take up 307 MB when unzipped.

Everyone, on any side of this "debate" should read the publications in this "Study Pack"

I also recommend that everyone read the book (which I referred to above) "The History of an infamous Idea: Flat Earth" written by Christine Garwood.

Here's a page where you can find places where you can buy the book - yes, "buy" it is still under copyright.  https://www.find-more-books.com/book/isbn/9781429986946.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_ZrXBRDXARIsAA8KauTVVTQEl0cxMZSrUSlNgfAoGSFWvIfAiHUWvw0WWXL7YmxS5dWEDb4aArUUEALw_wcB

 I paid $13.79 for a used hardcover copy from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312382081/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tom - I strongly suggest  you read about the "idea" you are pushing so hard before talking about its "developmental state."

I am reading everything I can find about the flat earth idea and I've found a huge number of publications about it and its history, you should do the same.

On another issue - can someone tell me how to insert a link without having the entire URL showing, that is, how do I put in a link such as "Click Here for more information" and have the actual URL not shown?

Seeker

[Macarios]

On another issue - can someone tell me how to insert a link without having the entire URL showing, that is, how do I put in a link such as "Click Here for more information" and have the actual URL not shown?

You use the tag with link inside the URL opening, and just text between opening and closing tag.

Code: [Select]

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsEHLSPiDNM]Si Dahashe[/url]

And it shows this:

Si Dahashe

(Mouse over to see the URL in the status bar.)

[isaacN]

"I give up, astronomy is wrong."

Is that the answer we are hearing?

I’m sorry Mr. Bishop but the problem here is not with astronomy, it’s more to do with your lack of understanding of the subject. Your initial question is clear proof of that. If you knew and understood that the solar system is 3D and not 2D, like your diagrams, and you actually knew and understood about the nature of the orbits of the inner planets then you would never have asked the question.

Where ,can I ask, have you gleaned your knowledge of astronomy from? As I understand that there are no flat earth run observatories here on the earth. If you were series and really wanted to expand your knowledge of the inner planets and their orbits then a visit to your nearest observatory would have accomplished that.

The orbits,particularly of those planets that are visible with the naked eye, have been known about and understood for many hundreds of years.

[Tontogary]

Really Tom, Using Wikipedia to try to prove something, it is one of the very first things the home page warns about, so you fell for it.

Well i never thought i would, but i agree with Tom Bishop!
Well on one point, sort of.

He said that Venus cannot be seen in the middle of the night, and that is true for certain parents of the earth at certain times of the year!

Venus is closer to the sun than earth, correct (although he says he doesn’t believe it)
Thus when Venus is between the earth and the sun you cannot see it. Well you can see it transit across the sun, but need some special equipment or you will be blinded, so dont try it. Also when it is close to the sun you cannot see it.

However there are a few physics laws which apply to the orbits and speeds and arcs, these are Kepler laws of planetary orbits. Please feel free to challenge the Zetetically if you wish.

As the orbit of Venus is closer to the sun, the orbital period is less, so that Venus is not always between the sun and the earth. Venus orbits the sun every 2256 days, as opposed to the earths 365 1/4 days.

At the present time Venus is at about 23 1/2 degrees North declination (coincidentally, the nearly the same as the sun during summer solstice) which will mean that Venus is visible in high latitudes all night, close to the artic circle, as at present it is lagging behind the sun for the time of meridian passage.

Tom also does not qualify what “middle of the night” is.
In the UK Venus is known as the morning or evening star, which means that it is visible in the early morning, before Sunrise, when it is in advance of the sun, disappearing from normal view when it is close to the sun, as it can only be seen during the day with special equipment, and then when it lags behind the sun, it becomes the evening star.

Surely Tom has heard of Venus being called this? It has been so for thousands of years.

Venus is also the most explored (still not a great deal) planet with probes and missions going back some many decades.
Nasa is not faking this, and they didnt “neglect” to mention that Venus is in an inner orbit, because it actually is!
The first probe went in 1962, over 50 years ago. The soviets landed there in the late 60s, and later soviet mission returned data from the surface in 1970. There have been a fair few other missions from both Nasa and the USSR, so either they were both lying or both in collusion at the hieght of the Cold War.
Over 30 missions from Nasa, Russia, European space agency and the Japanese have been there, orbited or flew past. Hard to believe they all colluded.

Mercury is even closer to the sun, but can be seen early in the morning, just before sunrise, or just after sunset, low on the horizon, as its orbit is closer to the sun, when its orbit is 90 degrees LHA away from the earths it is just visible.

[Pete Svarrior]

Your saying that the "Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development" raises the question - how long is it going to take for the "theory" to be "developed."

It will take as long as it takes. You seem to think that anyone's understanding of the world is a singular and completeable task - it is neither of those things.

[Tontogary]

The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.

The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.

[/quote]

Really Tom?
We are told by FEers that the Flat earth is stated in the bible and ancient scriptures? Are they wrong now? Do you dispute this? EnaG also puts this argument across, do you now say it is wrong?

FE was a given fact until “heretics” like Copernicus started to question it. Then Round Earth was proved to be the case. FE “truth” was around long before global earth, and you guys still cant get your act together to decide what shape, dimensions or physical attributes actually are?

Also if Flat Earth is a “theory” does not EnaG warn that theories are not to be trusted? Surely you have read the preface to EnaG? I have copied below for you, it is strange you do not follow his advice about Theories?

“. We need not seize upon every crude and ill-developed result which offers, or only seems to offer, the slightest chance of becoming evidence in our favour, as every theorist is obliged to do if he would have his theory clothed and fit to be seen.”

[Yasuo]

They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.

The Space.com link self admits that seeing Venus in the middle of the night should be impossible, and provides some sort of convoluted "explanation" without illustration.

Venus's nightly view

Some astronomy guidebooks will tell you that because Venus is a so-called "inferior" planet — a world  that is closer to the sun than Earth — that you can never see it in the middle of the night. But this week, for many locations, Venus will be visible at the witching hour and for some localities well beyond the stroke of midnight!

The reason that this is possible is two-fold:

First, although Venus has started its march back toward the sun's vicinity, this process initially is rather slow. Indeed, this week Venus' elongation from the sun measures 44 degrees; just 2 degrees shy of its greatest elongation that it attained about three weeks ago. (Your closed fist held at arm's length covers about 10 degrees of the sky).

In the interim, Venus has been progressing eastward along the ecliptic and in the process also moving northward through that part of the sky that the sun itself will be traversing during May and June. In other words, Venus has been describing a high arc across the sky, which is why at sunset it appears from mid-northern latitudes to be nearly halfway from the horizon to the point directly overhead (the zenith).

This explanation is not clear. It is supposed to describe something that is impossible.

I found an image from the New Jersey Institute of Technology which illustrates, with a top-down view, the idea of Venus being at or near "the greatest elongation from the sun," as Space.com tries to use as an explanation.



How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

Angles.

[Tiago]

This is not to scale.
It only shows the basic principle how can we see Venus at night.



EDIT:
For more details one would need more accurate drawing in 3D.
Maybe something similar to this:

But how does your model explain the fact that Venus can be visible all through the night according to this article https://amp.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html

Plus according to your explanation we should see Venus at its waxing crescent phase and not fully lit up as we see it in the sky.

[nickrulercreator]

But how does your model explain the fact that Venus can be visible all through the night according to this article https://amp.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html

Plus according to your explanation we should see Venus at its waxing crescent phase and not fully lit up as we see it in the sky.

The article you linked doesn't say anywhere (except the title) that it will be visible "all through the night." In fact, it says "This also means that Venus remains visible after sunset for between three-and-a-half hours (at 30 degrees North) and five-and-a-half hours (at 60 degrees North)!"

This is not all night long.

[MattyWS]

Feel free to make your own solar systems and check for yourselves what it looks like...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/230290/Universe_Sandbox/