6161

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 06:27:38 PM »

We learned earlier that a half year later, a sidereal day and a sun day are 12 hours apart. On one side of the sun they coincide, on the other side they are opposite. Since the only relationship that has changed is Earth to sun, the sidereal noon occurs at the same relative time that it did half a year ago, and solar noon now occurs 12 hours different. Oh wow, that makes solar noon continue to be during the day doesn't it? You're bringing in a requirement that doesn't exist and proclaiming it proves everything wrong. It's already been shown the difference between the two is 12 hours over the course of half of a year. Since the relative location of the stars to Earth doesn't change, that means the sun has done exactly what we experience every year. QED.

Sidrael Day is Star Time, and has nothing to do with this. What does it matter how fast the stars are moving in this?

Tumni has already settled the matter, by providing this link, right here:

The link Tumeni provided does say that Solar Day is technically "24.0000006 hours"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day#Apparent_and_mean_solar_day

In recent decades, the average length of a solar day on Earth has been about 86 400.002 seconds (24.0000006 hours) and there are about 365.242 2 solar days in one mean tropical year.

Lets divide those numbers:

Solar Day: 24.0000006 hours
Year: 365.2422 Solar Days in a Year

Year / Day = 15.21842461953938

Oh no. This is not a whole number. Even with the more accurate numbers this doesn't work.

They put their contradiction right there in the same sentence, and even specified that it is Solar Days in both cases.

6162

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 06:13:00 PM »

We have 8 mysterious pieces of a pizza pie that are the same size and a pizza tray that holds 8 pieces.

We see that the two pieces make up 2/8th's of the pizza tray.

Can we calculate whether, if put in all 8 of the pizza slices (that are of the same size, if you recall above) of the pizza pie, would they fit?

8 / 2 = 4 -- Yes, these are whole slices that will all equally fit into the pizza tray. Tray divided by pizza slices. The result is a whole number. All 8 will fit.

2 / 8 = 0.25 -- This is not a valid equation for the purpose of this. Pizza slices divided by Tray? You need to put the larger numerical integer first to see if the smaller integer fits into it by producing a whole number.

6163

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 06:02:26 PM »

@Tom Bishop
Premises:

• 1 day = 24 hours
• 1 hours = 3600 seconds

1/2 day = 12 hours
12/3600 = 0.0033333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333(and so on) = not an integer

Oh no! Conclusion: seconds do not fit into 1/2 day 

Why are you placing the hours integer first when the goal is to see if seconds fits into hours?

You need to put in the numerically bigger number first if you are looking to see if the small number fits into it.

3600 / 12 = 300 = The ratio works. Whole number.

Conclusion: A second fits into an hour.

6164

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 05:53:25 PM »

The link Tumeni provided does say that Solar Day is technically "24.0000006 hours"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day#Apparent_and_mean_solar_day

In recent decades, the average length of a solar day on Earth has been about 86 400.002 seconds (24.0000006 hours) and there are about 365.242 2 solar days in one mean tropical year.

Lets divide those numbers:

Solar Day: 24.0000006 hours
Year: 365.2422 Solar Days in a Year

Year / Day = 15.21842461953938

Oh no. This is not a whole number. Even with the more accurate numbers this doesn't work.

They put their contradiction right there in the same sentence, and even specified that it is Solar Days in both cases.

6165

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 05:44:34 PM »

Your Solar Day link says that the Solar Day is 24 hours long

The leap year happens because the year is 365.25636 days long. Why are you trying to use that as an explanation when that is already accounted for in the number.

6166

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 05:41:57 PM »

Sideral Noon is the fixed star's position. Yes, both images are facing us (the star). Congratulations. Sideral Noon changed.

But look at the picture! Solar Noon for NYC is different between both positions. NYC is in midnight in the bottom illustration. Uh oh. Solar Noon needs to be on the opposite side.

you're still not getting this.  just look at the image.  for the top bit, solar noon and sidereal noon are the same.  the star and the sun cross the local meridian at the same time.

for the bottom bit, sidereal noon happens at "solar midnight."  they're out of phase by twelve hours.  i genuinely do not understand what's troubling you about this geometry.

i think the problem is that you're assuming that over the course of an orbital period, a sidereal day and a solar day must have an integer ratio.  why must that be the case?

This is very easy to understand, Gary. I don't know why you are talking about the movement of the stars in relation to the sun. We are not talking about Star Time.

Lets break it down even simpler. Let not talk about half of the year. Lets talk about the full year. Very basic.

The Solar Time has a 24 hour cycle. That cycle does not fit into the length of the year of 365.25636 days.

Easy one, right? Just divide and we will get a whole number. But that is not what happens. The days don't fit.

6167

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 05:28:46 PM »

We don't know the number of hours in half a year in this problem.

.. but your premise to start with was

Premise:
     - A Solar Day happens every 24 hours
     - A Year happens every 365 days
365 days / 2 = 185.5 days in six months

So ....185.5 * 24 = 4452 hours.

The length of the earth's day doesn't fit into the year, whether whether we use 24 hours or 23.933333 hours (which is just star time, as we have read).

It doesn't work if we assume that the year is 365 days long or 365.25636 days long.

Please show how the number of days fits perfectly into the year.

This is very easy math.

We know that Solar Time has a 24 hour cycle. We know that the year is 365.25636 days long. How does it work?

6168

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 05:12:21 PM »

(...)
365.25636 / 2 = 182.62818 days in six months
(...)

Which six months? The year isn't divided evenly... (and there's reason for it)

But it doesn't matter if the movement of the earth around the sun is not a perfect circle. We are concerned solely with with ratios. The illustration is of Vernal and Autumnal Equinox.

Sidrael Time is star time, not the day and night time, and if that is the definition then I don't see why we should use it in this at all.

it's clear you simply don't fully understand the model you're criticizing.



i added a star to show you how these are related.  at the top, solar noon and "sidereal noon" are the same.  at the bottom, solar noon and sidereal noon are 12 hours apart.

Sideral Noon is the fixed star's position. Yes, both images are facing us (the star). Congratulations. Sideral Noon (star time) changed.

But look at the picture! Solar Noon for NYC is different between both positions. NYC is in midnight in the bottom illustration. Uh oh.

It appears that Star Time is not what we want to talk about here, and the rate the stars move in respect to the sun are not directly relevant. Why should we be concerned with the movement of the stars when we are talking about Solar Noon?

6169

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 04:55:30 PM »

I accounted for that in my last example. Did you not see where I stated:

Premise:
     - A Sidrael Day/Solar Day happens every 23.933333 hours

then i don't see what the issue is.  it's a very simple calculation.  i even stuck to integers to make it clearer to see.

4 minutes per solar day * 180 solar days = 720 minutes = 12 hours.

over the course of 6 months, sidereal noon will be ~12 hours behind solar noon.  what's the problem?

I think the definitions we are using for these terms may be slightly mixed up.

Lets look at this:

https://community.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/users/e2_solsid.html

Solar time is time measured with respect to the Sun's apparent motion in the sky. The clocks we use for civil timekeeping are based on this motion. Of course, the apparent motion of the Sun across the sky is actually caused by the rotation of the Earth. So, our clocks measure the length of time required for the Earth to rotate once with respect to the Sun. From our perspective, the Sun revolves around the Earth every 24 hours. This period is known as a solar day.

Sidereal time is time measured with respect to the apparent motion of the 'fixed' stars in the sky due to the Earth's rotation. While the Earth is rotating on its axis it is also moving along its orbit around the Sun. Over the course of a day the Earth moves about one degree along its orbit (360 degrees in a full orbit divided by 365.25 days in a year is about one degree). Therefore, from our perspective, the Sun moves about one degree from west to east with respect to the 'fixed' stars.

And this one:

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/S/Sidereal+Day

A solar day is the time it takes for the Earth to rotate about its axis so that the Sun appears in the same position in the sky. The sidereal day is ~4 minutes shorter than the solar day. The sidereal day is the time it takes for the Earth to complete one rotation about its axis with respect to the 'fixed' stars.

It says that Solar time is measured with respect to the Sun's apparent motion in the sky, and is 24 hours.
 
Sidrael time is measured with respect to the Stars, and is the 23.933333 hours per rotation value. Why would you use the time the stars rotate around the earth in this when we are concerned with the Sun?

Those links say that Solar Time has a 24 hour cycle. Lets use the value according to this link.

Lets now define that a Solar Day happens every 24 hours, and the year every 365.25636 days.

Premise:
     - A Solar Day happens every 24 hours
     - A year happens every 365.25636 days

365.25636 / 2 = 182.62818 days in six months
182.62818 / 24 = 7.609

A 24 hour cycle does not fit neatly into 182.62818 days.

Sidrael Time is star time, not the day and night time, and if that is the definition then I don't see why we should use it in this at all.

6170

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 04:35:00 PM »

It's not a random number. If the number of days (24 hour cycles) fit into half the year, it should be a whole number

An example:
24 / 6 = 4.
The number 4 is whole. The number 6 fits neatly into 24 four times.
This is a very, very clear concept.

.... then you need to divide the number of hours in a half year by the number of hours in a day to try and get an exact fit of days into the half year ....

We don't know the number of hours in half a year in this problem. That is an number or ratio we are trying to compute based on the length of day and the length of year, to see if the Solar Time cycle matches up.

If you assume that half of the year is composed of full 24/23.933.. hour cycles, then you just assumed your result. You need to do the math without that assumption.

And even if you do use that assumption for half of the year, that assumption will not fit into the full year if you do the calculations.

This last example I gave should have been very clear.

6171

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 04:23:52 PM »

This is a very, very clear concept.

indeed it is.

a sidereal day is 4 minutes shorter than a solar day.

I accounted for that in my last example. Did you not see where I stated:

Premise:
     - A Sidrael Day/Solar Day happens every 23.933333 hours

6172

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 04:18:53 PM »

Dividing the number of days in a half year by the number of hours in one day produces .... what? A random number.

It's not a random number. Division gives a ratio. If the number of days fit into half the year, it should be a whole number.

An example:

24 / 6 = 4.

The number 4 is whole. The number 6 fits neatly into 24 four times.

This is a very, very clear concept.

6173

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 03:38:32 PM »

I see that the concept of computing offset with division of degrees and circles, and the relation of such is lost on some.

You are right. I did assume that the earth orbit around the sun was a perfect circle. But we can do this without degrees, and with a method that does not assume that the orbit of the earth around the sun is a perfect circle. With easy and simple math that will make all very clear.


Napkin Calculations # 5 & 6

--- --- --- ---

Premise:

     - A Solar Day happens every 24 hours
     - A Year happens every 365 days

365 days / 2 = 185.5 days in six months

Now, we need to fit 24 into 185.5

185.5 days divided by 24 = 7.729

Conclusion: 24 does not fit cleanly into 185.5. If it did, it would be a whole number.

Conclusion: The day does not fit neatly into half of the year. Solar Noon will not be at the same place at that point.

--- --- --- ---

Lets now define that a Solar Day happens every 23.933333 hours, and correct the year as well.

Premise:

     - A Sidrael Day/Solar Day happens every 23.933333 hours
     - A Sidrael Year happens every 365.25636 days

365.25636 / 2 = 182.62818 days in six months

182.62818 / 23.933333 = 7.730.

Conclusion: 23.93333 hours does not fit neatly into 182.62818 days. If it did it would be a whole number.*

Conclusion 2: The Sidrael Day does not fit neatly into half of the Sidrael Year. Solar Noon will not be in the same place at that point.

An aside point: When we compare the ratios we got of 7.729 and 7.730 we can see that trying to use the slightly different numbers of Sidrael Day and Sidrael Year makes hardly a difference.

* For arguments that the numbers actually do fit, and but we just aren't "accurate enough" in the measured values of Sidrael Day and Year, and there were a few more numbers after the decimal numbers, the ratio result should still be very near to a whole number. It should be 8.00001 or something of that nature. But we are way off.

6174

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 01:36:35 PM »

Tumeni, thank you for participating. I need to go at the moment and can't read through your post and links to give an in depth response, but will make a reply later. I think that I did address sidereal day, sidereal year, and 365.98 degree rotation though, and showed that they do not make much difference in the calculations.

Here is another version I came up with a little earlier, which even easier to visualize:

Napkin Calculation #4

We can agree that, according to the image in the OP, after one full route of the earth around the sun, Solar Noon will be in the same place.

Using the simple numbers --

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.

6175

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 01:29:38 PM »

Tumeni, thank you for participating. I need to go at the moment and can't read through your post and links, but will make a reply later.

Here is another version I came up with a little earlier, which even easier to visualize:

Napkin Calculation #4

We can agree that, according to the image in the OP, after one full route of the earth around the sun, Solar Noon will be in the same place.

Using the simple numbers --

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.

6176

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 12:35:45 PM »

Dear Mr. Bishop,
Could you, please, help me understand why you divide the number by 360°?
Thank you.

I divided by 360 and 360.98 in Napkin Calculation #1 and #2 because this is a calculation involving hourly rotation (It started with 24 hours or 23.933333 hours in one rotation) and 360 represents one day. I didn't introduce the concept of a rotation when I introduced the 360 number.

I don't understand. Why would we take six months in days and divide by 360?

Look at Napkin Calculation 3. I am finding out how many degrees the earth spins over 6 months (according to a Sidreal Year), and then I am dividing by 360.98. I am of the opinion that it clearly shows the issue, and I do not mix variables in this calculation:

Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 182.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 182.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

I'd like to point out that you multiply 182.62818 [days] by 360.98 [°] and then you divide the answer by 360.98 [°]. So you get 182.62818 [days]. Not very useful, is it? Or did I misunderstand that calculation?

What I was going for was to show that when you divide you are facing the opposite way, which is why I stayed with degrees.

The offset is 182.62818 days from the starting point, as you can interpret that result in hours, but isn't the offset also 182.62818 degrees if you interpret the result in degrees since all of this takes place on a big circle?

However, since I was just reversing the calculation I did, I see the apparent weakness in that argument, but still maintain the above explanation.

How would you calculate this?

6177

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 12:15:31 PM »

I was editing and deleted a post. Anyone interested can read it above in Devils Advocate's post.

6178

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 11:38:03 AM »

Not sure why you divide the number of hours in 6 months by no of degrees in one day?
 If you multiply 182.5 by 360 it gives 65700 so now we have total hours in 6 months: 4380 ÷ total degrees in6 months:65700 which gives us 0.0666.
This makes more sense to me and fits with us observed or an I just being thick? (I'm totally open to that being the case here :-)

I'm dividing by 360 or 360.98 because I am dividing to get the offset in a day.

Since you are dividing by the hour, wouldn't that give us the degree offset per hour?

6179

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 11:24:35 AM »

Are you dividing the number of hours in six months by the number of degrees the sun rotates in one day?

Yes, that is the method I am using. I get the number of hours in 6 months and divide by 360 in the first two calculations. I am also dividing by 360.98, which is what some sources allege that the earth rotates in degrees in one day. The offset in both cases seems to suggest that NYC will be in night during its noontime.

6180

Flat Earth Investigations / Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory

« on: April 22, 2018, 10:31:35 AM »

There is something that seems wrong with the way the earth rotates around the Sun. Consider the following image that we are taught in school:




Assume that New York City is in its Solar Noon (look at where New York City is in the top and bottom September and March figures in the above illustration). After 6 months the motions suggests that New York City will be in darkness during its noontime.

Some Rough Calculations

Napkin Calculation 1

Day = 24 hours
Year = 365 days

365 days / 2 = 182.5 days in 6 months
24 hours x 182.5 days = 4380 hours in 6 months
4380 hours / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.16666 hour offset

Earth should be offset by 12.16666 hours (similar to the above image)? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Napkin Calculation 2

According to RET particulars, the earth doesn't rotate at exactly 24 hours a day, and the earth doesn't have an exactly 365 day year, which is why we have to change times and add a leap year every 4 years.

Sidreal Day = 23.933333 hours
Sidreal Year = 365.25636 days

365.25636 days per year / 2 = 182.62818 days in 6 months
23.933333 hours per day x 182.62818 days = 4370.90104712394 hours in 6 months
4370.90104712394  / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.14139179 hours offset

Earth should be offset by 12.14139179 hours? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 183.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 183.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Corrections with the 360.98 figure

Using 360.98 degrees per day in the second calculation, replacing 360 with 360.98, gives an offset of 12.1082 hours. The offset still says that NYC should be in night.

Replacing 360 with 360.98 in the third calculation gives an offset answer of 182.625 degrees. The offset still says that NYC should be in night.

---

I may be going about this entirely wrong. Can I have some help with this seemingly glaring problem?