[Ghost of V]

Both are great tracks. But they are all great tracks.

I love the rubber band bassline in Emerald Hill Zone

[rooster]

Mystic Cave was my favorite level but probably my least favorite music.

[Saddam Hussein]

Lots of smugness in this here thread.

[Ghost of V]

I have always staunchly thought the first few games were simply not good games. They are terribly designed, IMO, and amazingly flawed, and this video really hits all the nails on their respective heads.

A video confrims your feelings about a game? Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

I have a place in my heart for the series, mainly thanks to Sonic Adventure 1 & 2

Oh nevermind, it all makes sense now. 

[Blanko]

Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.

[Ghost of V]

Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.

Hold on, let me post a video real quick to confirm my opinions.

[Vongeo]

Why are you talking about Sonic but posting stuff from Dankey kang.

[Blanko]

Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.

Hold on, let me post a video real quick to confirm my opinions.

Ok, I'm waiting.

Anyway, I watched the video and it's pretty much in line with what I think of the games as well. It feels like the levels were designed for more of a precision platformer game, but were later implemented into Sonic mid-production with some added "go fast" props that don't actually add anything to the gameplay. Later games like Generations with its 2D sections seem to have better figured out what they expect the player to be able to react to and what the general overall flow for the levels should be. In the original games, you're either going really fast or really slow. There's no flow to speak of. Even if you use the "git gud fgt" excuse (which you really shouldn't unless you want to bring attention to the fact that the games are prime examples of so called "artifical difficulty"), that doesn't change the fact that there are A LOT of moving platforms sections that require you to not go fast. It also doesn't help that Sonic controls like dogshit when he's not going fast.

[Ghost of V]

Which game are you referring to? Are you referring to the entirety of the Genesis Sonic games? Or are you refering to Mario games? Have you even spent much time with early Sonic?

Almost every game in the 16bit era had some sort of artificial difficulty, so that's forgivable.  The bit about Sonic controlling badly is a moot point because I disagree... I never really had a problem getting Sonic to jump on platforms.  That's more of a personal problem. Sonic is faster than your average platformer protagonist, and his movements were made to reflect that. If you have problems controlling Sonic there are two other characters you can play as: Knuckles and Tails (at least in 3 & K, which I am mostly referring to because it is my personal favorite), both of which can fly, making platforming that much easier. Or you could just, you know, get better. To put it bluntly, I was playing Sonic 3 at 5 years old and rarely had trouble finishing levels (with the exception of the Lava zone which I never beat when I was a kid). Sonic games are platformers. They are based around precise controls, and even Sonic games give you a lot of leeway when it comes to jumping and whatnot.

The level design in Sonic 3 is simply ahead of its time. There are so many branching paths in every level, and some parts are only accessible to certain characters. Each stage progresses in a way that makes sense, with set pieces that move you between levels (Knuckles causing you to fall into Hydrocity Zone, for example). This had not been done before in any platformer since Sonic 3, and it makes you feel like you're actually in a rich world instead of playing a game with black screens between each level. Also, each stage is very complex and allows the player to freely explore, yet the game never leaves you lost or confused about where to go next. Mario, Megaman, pretty much any platformer before Sonic 3 did not have anything like this; you simply moved level to level completing each stage in a timely fashion. The bosses in each stage are pretty sweet too.

Of course, most of this is based on my opinion, but many happen to agree that Sonic 3 had great level design. The purpose of the game is one part platforming, one part exploration... sort of like what they tried to do with SA 1 & 2. The fact that people can speedrun through the game without getting hit shows that the level design isn't really flawed, it's just made to be difficult for people playing through the first few times. Plaformers are about memorization after all. Mario is the same way.

[Blanko]

Level design is fine, just not for going fast.

[Ghost of V]

Level design is fine, just not for going fast.

Oh. Ok.




This guy seems to be doing fine at high speeds?

[Blanko]

Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

[Ghost of V]

Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?

[Snupes]

A video confrims your feelings about a game? Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

Oh hey, a Vauxhall argument. This is what I was expecting from your first post. I'm great at Sonic games, have played most of them and beat the first two many, many times (mostly as a child, but several times since then). Those games were huge for me.

However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games. I've even said Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 were not good games, just that I have a soft spot for then because they were games I loved as a child. Of course, that doesn't matter because you're just pulling a Rushy as always.

And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.

[Ghost of V]

However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games.

Ok? Are you going to follow up on this or...? Just saying something does not make it so.

And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.

Getting good at a platformer requires memorization. That's part of the genre. Are you saying that SNES Mario games are poorly designed too?

I'm great at Sonic games

Obviously not.

Some people are just not good at platformers. I forgive you. Sticking with SA 1 & 2 is probably a good idea for you.

[Blanko]

Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?

No, people are not playing the game fast when the game forbids them from going fast. This is either through sections where the player is not allowed to go fast at all, or the player is being stopped due to things he couldn't have seen coming unless he had the level memorized. Thus, we have a situation where in order to play the game how you're supposed to, you must have already played the game previously and memorized it and even then that's only up to the points where the level design deliberately works against how the game is supposed to play. Most platformers are not like that. I don't know why you would think that's the case.

And what you're referring to as "getting good" is just playing through the game. Memorizing a level does not make you "get good" at the game, just at that individual level. Knowledge regarding one level does not carry over to the next one because you still wouldn't know the points in which the level will fuck you over if you try to go fast. So the game pretty much makes sure you have the worst possible experience on your first time playing through.

[Ghost of V]

Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?

No, people are not playing the game fast when the game forbids them from going fast. This is either through sections where the player is not allowed to go fast at all, or the player is being stopped due to things he couldn't have seen coming unless he had the level memorized. Thus, we have a situation where in order to play the game how you're supposed to, you must have already played the game previously and memorized it and even then that's only up to the points where the level design deliberately works against how the game is supposed to play. Most platformers are not like that. I don't know why you would think that's the case.

And what you're referring to as "getting good" is just playing through the game. Memorizing a level does not make you "get good" at the game, just at that individual level. Knowledge regarding one level does not carry over to the next one because you still wouldn't know the points in which the level will fuck you over if you try to go fast. So the game pretty much makes sure you have the worst possible experience on your first time playing through.

The game forbids going fast when it's necessary. Like jumping from one platform to the next, or challenging a series of mooks, or avoiding spikes. Those are called obstacles. Ever heard of them?


Are you trying to say that a game is poorly designed if you die a few times the first few times playing it???

Damn, maybe every game sucks?

[Vindictus]

Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?

[Blanko]

The game forbids going fast when it's necessary. Like jumping from one platform to the next, or challenging a series of mooks, or avoiding spikes. Those are called obstacles. Ever heard of them?

No, I don't think slowly moving platforms or rotating obstacles are necessary in a game where the supposed objective is to go fast.

Are you trying to say that a game is poorly designed if you die a few times the first few times playing it???

If I die to something I can't see, then yeah. Let's compare to another game you've played: Dark Souls. You know why everyone thinks Bed of Chaos is a shitty, horrible mess of a boss? It's not because it's hard. It's because it broke the design philosophy of always giving the player the opportunity to know what to expect. In Sonic games, that would be the norm, not the exception.

[Ghost of V]

Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?

That is entirely what Sonic is based on. You rarely have to come to a complete stop in 2D Sonic games. If you are, you're doing something wrong. You can breeze through most levels by jumping over every damn obstacle in the game, bouncing off enemies the whole way. I know this is true because I have done it. I don't think Blanko even said "come to a complete stop", he just said that the game is designed around impeding your speed... which it kind of is. The game is a platformer at heart; it was made to compete with Mario. If we compare it to Mario, then Mario is just as shitty... if not worse. Who ever wants to come to a complete stop in any game? Yet, almost every game has you coming to some sort of stop at points.

Going fast in Sonic games is a given, sure, but since the game is a platformer it naturally has to conform with some of the archaic conventions of the genre. This was the 16bit era, nothing was perfect... still, nothing is perfect. Sonic 3 is a damn good game when compared to several platformers made even 10+ years after it.

If I die to something I can't see, then yeah.

What? You know that rolling kills most enemies with the exception of armored ones, right? I could understand your argument if it was typical in Sonic games to just run off a ledge and die, but that is not typical at all. The ring system is also VERY generous with keeping you alive so that you can continue to go fast.